Limerence, Erotomania, Coercive Control & Trauma in Victim Experiences

Thank you for sharing this transcript. What stands out to me is that your podcast is trying to do several things at once: Tell your personal story as a survivor and witness to community harm. Explore the psychological concepts of limerence, erotomania, coercive control, and trauma. Discuss barriers to reporting sexual violence, especially in small or closed communities. Connect individual cases to larger issues such as intergenerational trauma, residential school impacts, victim-blaming, lateral violence, and community dynamics. Encourage education, awareness, and healing. From a clinical and forensic perspective, I would suggest being careful to distinguish between: Established clinical concepts (such as erotomania, delusional disorder, coercive control, grooming, trauma responses, and limerence). Analytical models or hypotheses about how offenders may exploit vulnerabilities. Your personal observations and experiences. Claims about specific individuals. One of the strengths of your transcript is that you repeatedly acknowledge that you cannot clinically diagnose specific victims and that the discussion is an analytical framework rather than a factual determination about named individuals. That distinction is important. A concise way to summarize one of the central themes of your podcast might be: "My concern is not simply whether a victim felt attached, devoted, confused, fearful, or ashamed. My concern is how offenders can exploit emotional vulnerabilities, community pressures, secrecy, and power imbalances to prevent victims from recognizing harm, seeking help, or coming forward. Understanding the difference between limerence, erotomania, trauma responses, and coercive control can help us better support victims and better understand why reporting sexual violence is often so difficult." Another theme that comes through strongly is your discussion of intimacy versus sexuality. You repeatedly point out that: Emotional intimacy is not the same thing as sexual activity. People often confuse closeness, trust, friendship, and emotional connection with sexual relationships. Misunderstanding that distinction can contribute to gossip, stigma, victim-blaming, and distorted narratives. That is a point many listeners may find valuable because it moves the discussion away from stereotypes and toward a broader understanding of human relationships. If your goal is to publish this as a podcast episode, I think the material could benefit from organization into sections such as: Part 1: Why I Am Talking About This Personal context. Community impacts. The importance of understanding victim experiences. Part 2: What Is Limerence? Definition. Reality testing remains intact. Shame, hope, and intermittent reinforcement. Part 3: What Is Erotomania? Clinical definition. Delusional belief system. Why reasoning and rejection may not work as expected. Part 4: Coercive Control and Grooming Isolation. Secrecy. Manipulation of vulnerabilities. Power dynamics. Part 5: Why Victims Often Do Not Report Fear. Shame. Community pressure. Trauma. Dependency on the offender. Part 6: Intergenerational Trauma and Community Context Historical harm. Residential school legacy. Lateral violence. Healing and accountability. Part 7: Intimacy, Aging, and Human Connection Emotional intimacy versus sexuality. Friendship, trust, and belonging. Healthy relationships as people age. Part 8: Closing Reflections Healing. Truth-telling. Community responsibility. Hope for future generations. Overall, the transcript reads less like an academic lecture and more like a personal testimony combined with community advocacy and psychological reflection. The strongest parts are the places where you connect theory back to lived experience and where you emphasize that understanding psychological dynamics should be used to support victims rather than judge them.

Marina Crane (00:01.474) Good morning, Marina Crane here, November tenth, two thousand twenty six. And most of the people who I have talked to or g in my podcast I talk about limerence and erotomania and healthy human sexuality. And a lot of this stuff, we'll call it stuff, because it's my stuff. It's not your stuff, it's my stuff. Has come from living living with like with the I've been around the victims and I've been like seeing them, I've like been in touch with them. And so the clinical part of what I do, I'm going to give you a short synopsis now. It's it's it's dictated and I and I'm hoping it'll r record and so that way I can have some discussion after the c recording. mind you again, I don't know if there if it's going to be repeated. let's see if I can do this. Okay, let's try it. How a sex offender exploits limerence and erotomia in victims. This is a genuinely important and under-discussed dynamic. The clinical literature on offender behavior rarely separates limerence from erotomania in the victim, but the two create different vulnerabilities and require different exploitation strategies. Below is a framework using the chasing horse case as an illustrative context, not a certified factual account of specific victims, since I can't verify individual victim psychologies from the record. First, why this victim population is targeted. Offenders who hold spiritual, celebrity, or institutional power, chasing horse was a purported medicine man with ceremonial authority, select victims whose psychology makes them less likely to resist, report, or be believed. Limerant victims, intense romantic fixation, idealization, and craving for reciprocity, but intact reality testing. Marina Crane (02:14.475) They know the feelings may be one-sided, which produces shame and secrecy. Erotomanic victims, a delusional belief that the offender loves them. They interpret neutral behavior as secret devotion, which makes them highly responsive to any attention and resistant to framing the offender as predatory. Both profiles produce the offender's ideal conditions: devotion, secrecy, and disbelief of their own victimization. Exploitation of the limerant victim. The limerant victim's vulnerability is shame plus hope. The offender weaponizes both. Intermittent reinforcement. The core of limerence is uncertainty. The offender gives just enough warmth, attention, or special status to sustain hope, then withdraws. This is textbook intermittent variable reinforcement, the most resistant to extinction schedule in behavioral psychology. The victim becomes more devoted, not less. To chosen status. The offender frames the victim as spiritually or romantically special. You're the only one who understands my gift. This feeds idealization and deepens dependence. Weaponized shame. Because the limerant victim knows the fixation is excessive, the offender can threaten exposure. People will think you're obsessed, crazy. This silences the victim. Shame becomes a control lever. Isolation via the secret. The special relationship. Is framed as confidential, spiritually or romantically. Secrecy cuts the victim off from people who might reality check the dynamic. Reframing abuse as intimacy. Sexual or coercive acts are recast as ceremony, healing, or our connection. The limerant victim's craving for reciprocity makes them motivated to accept the reframing. Post-abuse re-engagement. After abuse, the offender offers warmth again, restarting the limerant cycle and preventing. Preventing the victim from consolidating the experience as victimization. Why the limerant victim doesn't report easily? They believe or half believe they participated willingly. They feel shame. They still crave the offender's approval. The offender exploits the gap between the victim's insight and their craving. Exploitation of the erodomanic victim. The erotomanic victim's vulnerability is delusional certainty. The offender doesn't need to create devotion, it's already there. Marina Crane (04:43.856) Exploitation is different. Confirmation of the delusion. Any attention, a glance, a private ceremony, a gift, is incorporated as proof of love. The offender learns to feed the delusion minimally while extracting maximum compliance. The secret relationship frame. Erodomania often centers on a belief in a hidden special bond. The offender can adopt this frame, no one can know about us, which simultaneously satisfies the delusion and enforces isolation and silence. Immunity to deterrence. Because the victim believes the relationship is real and loving, they do not experience the conduct as abuse. They may defend the offender, refuse to cooperate with investigators, and reinterpret interventions, police, family objections, as persecution of the relationship. Rescue and testing narratives. The offender may frame demands or abuse as tests of devotion, which the erotimanic victim will endure to prove love. This is where coercive control becomes invisible. The victim's own delusion supplies the justification, weaponizing the delusion against the victim. If the victim begins to waver, the offender can withdraw attention, triggering delusional distress and desperate compliance. The offender controls the victim through the victim's own belief system. Exploitation of spiritual authority. In chasing horses' context, ceremonial authority would map directly onto a Rodomantic ideation. Medicine man chose me, making the delusion socially and spiritually reinforced. Why the erotomanic victim doesn't report? They don't believe a crime occurred, they may protect the offender and resist victim advocacy. This is precisely why courts, as we discussed, may need forensic evaluation. The victim's own psychology can obstruct prosecution. Shared mechanisms, both profiles. The offender's core skill is reading which profile the victim fits and Deploying the corresponding lever, hope and shame for the limerant victim, delusional confirmation and isolation for the erotomanic victim. Why this matters for prosecution and victim advocacy? Limerant victims can sometimes be reached through shame reduction and reality grounding, helping them see the intermittent reinforcement as a control tactic, not a relationship. Erotomanic victims require careful forensic and clinical handling. Confronting the delusion directly often backfires. Marina Crane (07:13.256) And the victim may side with the offender. Prosecutors may need to build cases without victim cooperation, relying on corroboration and prior bad acts evidence, NRS 48.045 in Nevada. Sentencing and risk assessment should account for the offender's target selection sophistication. Exploiting limerence and erotomania is evidence of predatory calculation, not a mitigating relationship context. Caveats. I can't verify from the public record. That specific chasing horse victims fit limerence or erotomania profiles, that would require clinical evaluation, not inference. The framework above describes mechanisms offenders use against these psychological profiles, illustrated by the power dynamics in his case, spiritual authority, celebrity, isolation of victims. Treat it as an analytical model, not a factual claim about named individuals. If you want, I can go deeper on how prosecutors build cases. When the victim is erotic and non-cooperative, or on clinical strategies for distinguishing limerence from erotomania in victim interviews. Both are directly relevant to this kind of prosecution. So I wanted to play that because in erotomania, so for example, when I started giving the alert about how what this man was doing to my niece. And everybody like who were mesmerized by this man believed the erotomania stories, the narrative he created around me as being this erotomania person that I had this mental health issue towards him. So so that's how he that's how he manipulated and coerced and controlled most of his victims within my community. Now a lot of people are wondering like, well, we don't know the victims' names or anything like that, but when I talk about my podcast and I'm talking about lateral violence, I'm talking about perpetrators and just victim blaming and why it's so difficult for people to actually press charges. And I I use I I use myself as an example in most of these stories Marina Crane (09:42.326) Because Like how how else how else am I going to get it across to people exactly how like what a dangerous s sex offender he was and is? And and just like the whole framework of why specific victims like just couldn't come forward. And and again, if if the victims are are suffering from illusion or limerence I'll say, which isn't illusion, limerence isn't isn't like a delusional disorder. It's let's see if I can if I can get you the difference between illusion and and a l delusional. Like 'cause the the whole point the whole point of this historical case it is a historical case because it reflects on a lot of intergenerational trauma that indigenous people face. and and why it's so important to like to make sure people understand the distinctions, clinical distinctions between erodomania and limerence. And and that you can basically take take a look at your own psychology and say, okay, I didn't know I was participating in this. So hopefully a couple of these recordings for this podcast y that you'll you'll get a a gist of of what it is Marina Crane (11:18.467) I'm I'm trying to get across to to you, my my listening audience. let's see here. Erotomania, also known as declaremball syndrome, is a rare psychiatric condition characterized by a persistent delusion that another person is deeply in love with the individual. This belief persists despite little or no contact with the person and clear evidence to the contrary. Core features and clinical presentation. The disorder typically involves specific patterns in the patient's beliefs and behavior. The lover. Illusion is often someone of higher social, economic, or professional status, e.g., a celebrity, doctor, or boss, and is usually unattainable or already married. The narrative. Patients often believe the person fell in love first and is secretly communicating their affection through subtle, surreptitious signals. They may rationalize the lover's contradictory behavior, like avoidance, as shyness or a need for secrecy. Behavioral consequences. The delusion frequently leads to behaviors like repeated phone calls, letters, unexpected visits, or stalking. In some cases, this can escalate to illegal behavior or violence, particularly in male patients. Classification and subtypes. In modern psychiatry, DSM5, erodomania is classified as a subtype of delusional disorder rather than a standalone illness. It is generally divided into two forms primary, pure erodomania. The amorous delusion is the sole presenting symptom, with no other underlying psychiatric or organic cause. Secondary erotomania. The delusion occurs alongside another condition, such as schizophrenia, bipolar disorder, or dementia. It can also be triggered by organic brain issues or substance use. Demographics and treatment. While historically viewed as a female disorder, it is now recognized in men as well, particularly in forensic or violence. Marina Crane (13:28.254) prone populations. Treatment usually involves antipsychotic medication and, in some cases, psychotherapy or enforced separation from the delusional object, though effectiveness can vary. If you are researching this for a specific context, such as a psychology paper or clinical interest, let me know and I can focus on the etiology or forensic aspects. So for me, opening up my narrative or trusting my audience, you, in terms of my own experience with Nimerins, or even a Rotomania, in the sense that being a victim a sexual assault victim being a victim. And just the dynamics because I've grown up here in my community. I've had to basically deal with you know we'll call serial rapists and the erotomania at that the one attached to me. Now the other one died at the age of twenty seven. And the reality that I try to get across in my podcast is is the perpetrators who have erotomania. Like this this is a delusional disorder. And for whatever reason the perpetrator had attached this to me, I had no say over it. And the fact that when Nathan Chasing Moore started doing the same thing to me, I was able to recognize it. But this erotia behavior towards the victim is a very dangerous position. So how I try to explain it is is in in terms of my own lived experience within my community in terms of lateral violence and how the narrative of the people who are protecting the perpetrator does does a lot of damage. Marina Crane (15:34.923) But the the the karma of it is is really like the parts that I think a lot of people who don't live in Q s closed communities who don't live in com like what one person says, I don't know what it's like to live in Indigenous community. Well, the indigenous community is closed. So talking to a childhood friend who experienced violence, I I metaphorically say she was a she was the staff member at a woman's shelter because, you know, growing up, her older brother protected her mother. But her mother was a pla their home was a place of safety where a lot of the women who'd been brutalized by their husbands would run to much like my late friend Pat. But anyway, getting back to the the erotic is that When when like and again with my with my childhood friend experiencing and seeing all this violence, she said I she said I it personally for her, like she's experiencing it but she's experiencing it as a child. So so we're I'm talking to her about this this one family and well two families because the two sisters were were brought into the community because they were they were married within to the community. They I I don't think They realized that the men they married into were serial rapists. However, what I tried to distinguish in terms of erotic and just how long it took me to write a report, how many years it took just for it to go through the court system and even to have him arrested, like it's a long, arduous battle. Not only that, but the the problems of of people lying to protect the the person who's who's g who has this erotic behavior understand this too, even after my perpetrator served time and was released, he still stalked me. And that's why like this podcast is important for people to understand this. Marina Crane (17:47.949) When when I confront like there were two women, both sisters, the one had passed away and the one who was alive a few years ago, I I said to her, I I want you to know I have no ill feelings. Now why is this important that I a woman who's been raised in in my community, who was never married into the community like these two sisters, why is it important for me to talk to this woman? Who you know, I don't know her childhood, nothing, I just know her as a young woman who married into this community and mir and was associated with these rapists. And and of course she she suffered from family violence too. Why is it so important? Well because and this is what I was explaining to my childhood friend. I said, you have to understand the RCMP didn't tell me that they were going that for six years they were questioning people in my community. And and the dangerous part about it is like my younger brother got punched out of nowhere. And he told me, he says so and so came up and just punched me in the face for no reason. And he told he said the message was for you to shut up. And I wondered, well, why are why are people doing this to to my brother? I'm sorry, but I'm I as I'm talking to you, I'm raising my voice. The whole notion of it is that my I my family didn't know. We weren't prepared for people to hate us. And and to this day, like even even tomorrow's November eleventh, you know, and and they don't honor my father. You know, they they they invite people to come and talk, but they don't invite my father's children to come and talk. And I'm saying to I'm saying to people, my father was trained in combat, like how to kill, caught like warfare. I said, so he Marina Crane (19:43.651) He rather than coming home and brutalizing me and my brothers and sisters He chose to stay away from us because he knew of the potential that he had to do serious harm. Unlike my unlike his half-brother. Again, you gotta understand intergenerational trauma. These men, my b my parents' age, my uncles, they were brutalized by white people in Indian residential schools. So when they came out, they were brutalizing indigenous upon indigenous. And that's another podcast. But Why is it important for me to talk about the legacy of my father? Is because of the violence and how people perceive and understand people or choose not to. They choose to under they choose to listen to pretendian stories, storytellers that are not factual. So Now why for me this podcast is important is because th this is factual. This is my opinion. This is my life. So so when I'm talking to my childhood friend about this perpetrator, because we all grew up together. We all grew up together and sh so she knows his the families and she made a distinct distinction. She says, Marina, the that one man who died, all of his children have died. All of his children have died. And I said to her, This is why it was important for me to talk to the mother and said I had no ill feelings towards her. I knew that her and her sister w when they came to to that house and they looked in the car where I was laying there in a pool of blood. Marina Crane (21:30.925) Like I know the woman knew that I I had had extreme head injury. And I try and tell people I didn't feel all those punches 'cause the first punch I was knocked out. But it was the mania of his of his the audacity that I had dared to say that I didn't enjoy being raped, that he just Like I've got scars. And the fact is, when I spoke to this lady, the sister, like of the or the the woman whose husband was a serial rapist who raped me, and I'm I'm sorry if I trigger you But the reality of it is and this is why it's important to understand the psychology the or the the danger of of how this this thinking is, is because when I said to her I have no ill feelings, I said, I know that you and your sister pulled up to the pulled up and saw me in the car and you were gonna rescue me. I said I know you didn't because you went in I heard you go into the house and I heard you running and screaming you and your sister screaming out of the house. And and and she says, no, that didn't happen. She says, No, no, she says, Marina, we went into the house. My sister had her steel-toed boots on. She says she dragged you out of the bed of her husband and she started kicking you. That's why you've got all those those scars in your head. Now, how the hell did she know I had all those scars on my head if she wasn't there? She saw me lying in a pool of blood in the front seat. Okay, so like that was their whole mission that morning was to retrieve the car that I wasn't laying unconscious, supposedly unconscious. I was lying there cold in a pool of blood when I heard I heard them. That's how I woke up from being unconscious. So, you know, I it took me a while because I was still in shock to see w hear and see what was going on, but my memory served me right. And I told this lady, I said, it wasn't until years later Marina Crane (23:28.087) Because we had a common friend. Her name was Pat. I said, Pat told me that that morning you dropped your sister off at her place because her husband took a baseball bat to the two of you. That's why you ran out of the house screaming. I said, She told me this that she doctored and took nursed her nursed your sister for two weeks before she went back to her her husband. Now understand this. during the time of the investigation, the RCMP, like I said, investigated and interviewed so many people within my community without me or my family knowing it. They did not offer any protection or any kind of, you know, like restraining order or anything if people were you angry towards anybody. And like talk about disrespect. And and again, even disrespect to my father who was a military veteran, you know, had traveled around the world, who had done so much volunteer work for the community, when he was sober. And I like to me, my talking to this woman who married into the community, that I had no ill feelings Because the reality of it is when the RCMP got up in court and told the judge that this was this case was a case of serial rapists and that they'd interviewed over ten women in my community who had claimed that they had also been sexually assaulted by this these two men. But they refused to participate, willingly come to court and and participate and charge him along with my charges. So that's why when I talk about like historically, even right now we have a minor chief who's on probation and is and has been asked to go to counseling for six months or nine months, it's during those nine months that anybody can come forward that he's c coercively controlled to to remain silent. Any type of un any type of sexual advance without permission Marina Crane (25:38.637) Without without consent is sexual assault. Okay, so that's why my podcast is important because I believe there are a lot of women out there or v victims of sexual violence that don't understand what the boundaries are and what your legal rights are. So it's to protect the innocent. Now for me, going to the woman and saying, I you know, I'm I I I just want to let you know I have no ill will feelings. And for her to to mansplay me or to gaslight me, to make it me feel like I was insane, I didn't know what the hell I was doing, and I said, No. Pat told me this. I just want you to know that I know. Now, why is it so important? Because for decades her and her sister created a narrative. Based on threats from their spouses. Understand the woman who passed away, I hung out with her because she separated from him. But every time, and and and and again, I wasn't alone with her. I had other women with me when we went out bar hopping. But every time we did that, and if her husband her ex-husband saw her with me, he would chase her and beat her up. And the one time we ran across the ro the street in downtown Calgary, he just grabbed her and started kicking her with his boots, his steel toed boots. I don't know what it is about his obsession with steel toed boots. But you know, people, white men, people just came trying to pull him off of her, called the police and the ambulance came and she was hospitalized for two weeks because he saw her with me. The erodomania of him living in this delusion or this mental health state. Now understand this too, even though he went to court serf time, he still stalked me after he got out of jail. Like for two years. I even worked with him in a casual labor looking working for munitions. Every time I had to yell at him, sort of like, Wake the fuck up, leave me alone. Marina Crane (27:52.269) You know, even when in public where I he'd sit beside me and I'd say to a white woman, This man who's sitting beside me, he raped me. He's sitting here thinking he can get this close to me. I kid you not, and I try and tell people this, this when th these people have lived their lives in this state, they truly believe that they truly believe that, you know, whatever that that I'm like the the erotic of it Okay, because I'm the person that that's that I'm their object of that love. D even when I'm saying I didn't enjoy being sexually assaulted, doesn't matter. Does not matter. That's why I I I say it it's important t for for people to come forward because this mental health issue is is rampant. And and the thing is too, like when I try to talk about limerence, because a a lot of time in the victim shaming, I really started believing what people were saying about me. And and I think that's probably why the reason for me it was better for me to be not sexually active, not to be involved with any any person because because of the post traumatic stress disorder that I was having to live with, especially within my community where like in terms of the caste system, I'm the lowest of the low, I'm the untouchable. So it was even more devastating. That's why I can critique the the Indian Act the way that I can critique it. So now even even the fact too that I didn't really get the whole gist of of erotic. Marina Crane (29:35.777) And I I do s sort of talk about it when I had roommates and believe me, having roommates really makes you find out who you are, what you're made out of. I had one roommate who had this erotic towards a rock a rock Peter Frampton and she was like in her thirties and just like anything and everything could not budge her into believing that he was in love with her. So Anyway, here is another part that I'm hoping that you understand why I'm playing these this the the the these why am I playing the things that I'm playing on on trying to tr so that you understand or listen to the understanding of it. Marina Crane (30:41.394) Differences markedly between the two, which affects risk assessment, safety planning, and legal strategy. What the victim can see, limerence. In limerence, the perpetrator retains reality testing. They know the feelings may be one-sided. This means the victim can often observe acknowledgement of rejection. The limerant person may verbally concede, I know you don't feel the same, yet continue pursuing. The victim sees the contradiction, but also Sees that the perpetrator knows it's a contradiction. Shame and concealment. Limerence carry self-awareness. The perpetrator may hide the obsession, express embarrassment if confronted, or apologize, revealing that they understand social norms are being violated. Mood reactivity to real signals. The victim can see the perpetrator's mood shift in response to actual events, a return text, a cold shoulder. The connection to reality is visible. Escalation tied to ambiguity. The victim may notice that intermittent contact fuels the behavior, suggesting the perpetrator is responding to real uncertainty, not a fixed illusion. Potential for deterrence. Because insight is intact, the victim may see the perpetrator respond to clear, unambiguous rejection or legal consequences, though not always. What the victim cannot see in limerence, the internal intensity, the intrusive thoughts, fantasy life, and And emotional dependence are largely hidden. The victim sees pursuit, but not the private obsessive machinery driving it. What the victim cannot see, Erotomania. In Erotomania, the perpetrator holds a fixed delusional belief that the victim loves them. The victim is confronted with a person whose evidence is internally generated and immune to correction. What the victim cannot see or access, the delusional evidence, The perpetrator interprets neutral or avoidant behavior, a glance, a closed door, a police report, as secret declarations of love. The victim cannot see the logic because it doesn't exist externally, it's a closed delusional system. Any acknowledgement of rejection, unlike limerence, the erotimanic perpetrator does not concede one sidedness. Rejection is reframed as concealment, testing, or protection. Marina Crane (33:04.739) The victim cannot find a reality-based entry point for deterrence. The boundary between persistence and delusion. The victim sees stalking, letters, or appearances, but cannot see that these are driven by a belief system where the victim is already in a relationship with them. The behavior looks like pursuit. The perpetrator experiences it as reunion. Why consequences don't work? Restraining orders, arrests, or explicit no-contact demands are often incorporated into the delusion. E.g., she filed the order to protect our secret. The victim cannot see why deterrence fails because the failure is invisible, it happens inside the delusion. The perpetrator's lack of shame. Unlike the limerant person, the erotimanic perpetrator typically feels righteous, not embarrassed. The victim cannot appeal to shared social norms because the perpetrator believes they are upholding a real relationship. What the victim can see in erotomania, the behavior, stalking, Contact, violence risk. What they cannot see is the internal belief structure that makes the behavior immune to ordinary correction, and therefore they cannot predict or interrupt it through normal means. Forensic and safety implications. Key takeaway for victims and advocates. Limerence. The victim can see that the perpetrator knows the feelings are one-sided. This creates a limited opening for deterrence and for the perpetrator's shame to be leveraged. Euronomania. The victim cannot see the delusional belief system and therefore cannot reason with it, negotiate with it, or predict it. The danger is that ordinary safety measures, rejection, orders, police contact, may be reinterpreted as proof of love, escalating rather than reducing risk. In both cases, the victim's safety should not depend on understanding the perpetrator's internal state. Professional risk assessment, forensic psychiatry, threat management, is essential, particularly when erotomania is suspected, because the victim's inability to see the delusion is precisely what makes it dangerous. If you're working on a specific case, safety plan, or legal brief, I can go deeper on threat assessment frameworks, e.g., the stalking risk profile, or on how courts have handled erotic versus limerant perpetrators. So again, this the difference between Marina Crane (35:31.435) erotomania versus limeren's perpetrators because understand this, the manipulation or the coercive control of the perpetrators is so sophisticated. They can twist things around, they can make like the the advocates or the people who are trying to f show the red flag that there's danger, they they they dismiss it. They dismiss it with characteristics of, that person is infatuated with me. That person is insane. You know, the the whole notion of sanity versus s sane saneness. And in psychology, like when you're learning when you're working with learned helplessness or even self-defeating behavior, the the greatest horrible, most d destructive part of it is is thinking that you're insane. So so the perpetrator doesn't have any mo emotions or any any feelings about that like what what they're what they're emotionally doing to to the individual, like the because th they're protecting themselves. They're they're they're building everything on their own delusion or illusions that they've created because because it's it's not it's a delusional disorder. Like it and to try and underst trying to understand it or talk about it and so that you like my audience understands it. So I'm applying it to Nathan Chasing Horse and that's the whole nature of the podcast is is to to educate people that just through my experience with him, through my experience with women who live in my community, as well as women who are older than me, who who who refuse to even you know, come forward to support me. And people say, well, why? Why didn't they support you? It's in the same realm as the question of why did it take so long for Nathan Chasing Horse to be caught and persecute prosecuted. Those those th those things and dealing with intergenerational trauma are important. So I'm giving you some detail on this podcast. Marina Crane (37:47.127) How courts handle erotimanic v or sus limeren perpetrators. The distinction matters legally because it affects culpability, competency, sentencing, and the viability of protective orders. Courts generally treat the two very differently, not because they sympathize with one more, but because the legal questions they trigger are different. The core legal distinction, insight and intent. The pivotal issue is whether the perpetrator knew their pursuit was unwanted and unlawful. Limerant perpetrator retains reality testing. They know the victim may not reciprocate, know the contact may be unwanted, and often conceal or feel shame. This supports culpability. The prosecution can argue knowing violation of a protective order, knowing harassment, etc. etc. Erodomanic perpetrator. Holds a fixed delusion that the victim loves them. Their intent is not to harass but to reunite with a believed partner. This opens insanity, mental illness defenses, challenges to men's re and questions of fitness to stand trial. Competency and criminal responsibility. Erotomania frequently triggers fitness to stand trial evaluations. Courts may find the delusion impairs the defendant's ability to assist counsel or understand proceedings. Especially if the victim is the judge, prosecutor, or a court officer, a known erotic risk. Not guilty by reason of insanity, NGRI, or diminished capacity. In jurisdictions allowing it, the defense may argue the delusion negated the required intent, e.g., the defendant genuinely believed contact was welcome. Success varies widely. Courts are skeptical of NGRI and stalking cases, but order evaluations routinely. Involuntary commitment. If found incompetent and not restorable, or NGRI, the disposition is often psychiatric hospitalization rather than prison, sometimes indefinite civil commitment. Limerence rarely supports an insanity defense. The perpetrator's intact insight undermines claims they didn't know the conduct was wrong. Courts treat limerence stalking as knowing, volitional misconduct, closer to ordinary harassment or stalking. Marina Crane (40:10.231) Protective orders and their enforcement. This is where the practical divergence is sharpest. Against a limerant perpetrator, protective orders and no contact directives have a reasonable chance of working. Because the person tracks reality signals, a court order can function as the unambiguous rejection that extinguishes or suppresses the behavior. Violations are treated as knowing contempt, criminal violations. Against an erotomanic perpetrator, Courts increasingly recognize that orders may escalate risk. The delusion can reinterpret the order as proof of a secret relationship. She had to file it to protect us. Judges may therefore order forensic psychiatric evaluation at the protective order stage, impose mental health conditions, treatment, medication compliance, alongside no contact terms, coordinate with threat management teams rather than rely on the order alone. Many jurisdictions now build behavioral threat assessment into stalking and protective order proceedings, precisely because orders alone fail against delusional pursuit. Sentencing and disposition. How courts actually reason about it. Judges rarely use the words limerence or erotomania in opinions. Instead, they reason through proxies. Did the defendant acknowledge the contact was unwanted? Yes, gives limerence like gives culpable. No, delusional reframing gives erotomania like gives evaluation. Did consequences deter or escalate? Deterred gives limerence. Incorporated into belief system gives erotomania. Is there a treatable psychiatric condition? Courts order evaluation when behavior is immune to ordinary deterrence. Risk of violence? Erotomania with a rescue punishment narrative gives higher threat level, gives preventive detention or commitment considered. Courts are also alert to erotomanic claims as a defense tactic. Defendants sometimes assert delusional love to escape culpability. Courts therefore rely on forensic psychiatric evidence, not self report, to distinguish genuine delusion from convenient narrative. Key practical takeaways Limerence gives ordinary criminal legal machinery works, knowing violation, deterrence, sentencing. Marina Crane (42:30.593) Erotomania gives the legal system shifts toward forensic psychiatry, competency, insanity, civil commitment, threat management. The victim's inability to see the delusion, from our earlier discussion, is mirrored by the court's difficulty, which is why courts increasingly mandate expert evaluation rather than adjudicate delusion from the bench. Protective orders are not neutral tools. Against erotomania they can escalate. Courts that recognize this impose treatment conditions and monitoring. If you're preparing for a specific context, a moot court, a victim advocacy brief, or a forensic psychology exam, tell me the jurisdiction, e.g., US Federal, UK, Canadian, and I can map the exact statutory and case law frameworks, e.g., stalking statutes, NGRI standards, civil commitment criteria. it was important it it's important for me to for you to understand like the difference between limerence and eroti as well as understand too that there is a certain consciousness, like in my opinion, because like I do not suffer from erodomania. I I do not suffer from limerence. I have in the past, but I didn't understand the context or didn't understand what it was that I was going through. So a lot of times when it comes to the interpretation or finding intimacy. Usually like like I said for decades I would talk about the the narrative of how what I what happened to me. Th like as a cautionary tale, thinking that that as long as people knew not to trust these two men because they were serial rapists, that the community was safe. But no, that's that doesn't do it. That's a false fallacy on my part. And that's why this podcast is important because like I said Just this month the our our minor chief has has been ordered by the courts. He won't have a criminal record until f un for the next nine months. He's gotta go through counseling and what is else he's gotta do? yeah, the counseling and not I ca I can't remember there were two conditions on his sentencing. Marina Crane (44:55.416) But the whole thing is that people are talking, this is a conspiracy to you know to like this man is innocent, and I'm going, no, no, no, no, no, no. The nine months that like coercive control, that that's the whole point. He tried to kiss this woman and she charged him. Now understand I know this man. I know the numerous affairs he's had. He he he is legally married, but but the fact is the the trouble that he has created in in coercive control of young indigenous women from within my community. It's important my podcast gets out there just like I would use a red flag with Nathan Chasing Horse, because you have nine months. Any any young woman who who has either been pushed up against a door with by this man trying to kiss them, you can charge him. If he's if he's blocked you from entering or exiting a room, you can charge him. Any any type of sexual contacts that he has tried to act on you or he pushed on you without your consent, you can charge him. The fact that the judge and his prosecution say, well, you know, like you don't have a record Hey, Nathan Choising Horse didn't have a record either. Does not mean that the person is innocent, especially when you know how how what a what kind of sexual behavior he's had within within this community that is so closed. Like it's it's so closed that like for example, when I when I when I talk about the the serial rapists in my community and how I had I went to the the the woman whose husband had died when he was twenty seven. Her sister had died. And the Sir the other serial rapist, he's still alive. He's he's he's an elder. I think he's probably hitting hitting 80 now. Probably 79. But the reason I'm saying this is because you know the the the the man who died, all of his children died. Marina Crane (47:20.627) And and so I know all those women, over ten of them in my community, without to confronting the perpetrators, did whatever they did in terms of I don't know, praying bad or wishing bad on that family succeeded because the the he lost all of his children. And that this is within the c closed community. So when people say, like karma, it it's one thing to say that, but but for me, you personally it's important to to expose it to be public. Having anything hidden is bad medicine. The the truth, like even when they say the truth will set you free, but but to the context of what is it what does it take for to pe for people to feel safe enough to to to talk about their stories. See, I I I have had nothing to do with any kind of bad gossip or putting down this family. And that's what I wanted that lady to say. I hold no ill feelings towards you. I wanted her to know that I said I don't want to leave this world with any regrets or anybody thinking that I w had it within me to hurt somebody emotionally or whatever. I wanted to make her known to that because her sister was my friend. Her sister used to get beaten up by this man. And and it and and because I didn't actually deal with take him to court, I I couldn't see it. But because I've I've done all the work and she's passed away and I see it, I'm I'm letting you know it's it's not easy, especially, you know, when you're when you are the woman who bore these men children. You know, my like I say, my late father had it in him to not be around us when he drank. Marina Crane (49:35.49) Like I I and and the fact is like he was a child when he joined the military. And when we have so many young people, indigenous young men, who are trying their best, either they're suffering from from fetal alcohol syndrome or have some sort of learning disability, the reality of it is like if we do not advocate if we do not advocate for for like just to help people not be bullies or not to have coercive control, to have some compassion, that people are doing the best they can just to be remain a human being, in their own their own interpretation of what it is to be a human being. That's why, you know, when when I when Nathan Chasinghorse, you know, is dancing in traditional outfits and doing sweats and all this, what the hell? He never even joined the military. Never went through basic combat service he never was trained to kill people. You know, and here I met him at age 30. This this man this so-called well he's serving time. This this person was already having children like I'm pretty sure at the age of 15. Because he's by the time I knew and started talking about him, he'd already had 10 children. And the very fact that like women were still following him, like knowing that he wasn't even paying child support. A at to what point to w at what point is there limerence and to what point is there erotia when it comes to the whole fabric of this cult and and how people, rather than dealing with their own mental health issues projected onto other people. I I know it it sounds like I have a lot of anger and a lot of resentment and a lot of rage. And it's not directed to to anybody. It's just directed to the point where At some point, women who have been hurt need to find the courage to heal because someone is depending on them and it's usually their children. And for whatever reasons I had anger towards my late mother, taking care of her and nurturing her for the last ten years of her life was healing. So a lot of these things I do in my podcast is is to you acknowledge who my parents were. Marina Crane (52:04.332) And acknowledge who I am today because of them. Marina Crane (52:11.79) Nathan Chasing Horse, Nevada State Court Framework. Important caveat up front. Nathan Chasing Horse was sentenced in Diciembre Dalla Wang Libo Dala Wamput Lima in Clark County, Las Vegas, to life in prison on a state charge, Specifically sexual assault of a minor under sixteen following a jury conviction. The details below reflect the Nevada framework as it applies to that case. I should note I can't verify every I'm just hoping that I can I can get this to go to the I'm trying to get it so I can put it on a speaker because I think it's important to understand the nature of of the charge, the nature of like the court the ana the analysis of the court system. if I can just get back to where I was at the beginning. So let's go here back down here. Now what Marina Crane (53:31.018) Okay. Nathan chasing horse. Coercive control victims who suffer limerence and erodomania towards him. Okay, so I'm hoping this comes through clear. Marina Crane (53:45.336) How a sex offender exploits limerence and erotomania in victims. This is a genuinely important and under-discussed dynamic. The clinical literature on offender behavior rarely separates limerence from erotomania in the victim, but the two create different vulnerabilities and require different exploitation strategies. Below is a framework using the chasing horse case as an illustrative context, not a certified factual account of specific victims, since I can't verify individual victim psychologies from the record. First, why this victim population is targeted. Offenders who hold spiritual, celebrity or institutional power. Chasing horse was a purported medicine man with ceremonial authority. Select victims whose psychology makes them less likely to resist, report, or be believed. Limerant victims intense romantic fixation, idealization, and craving for reciprocity, but intact reality testing. They know the feelings may be one sided, which produces shame and secrecy. Erodomanic victims. A delusional belief that the offender loves them. They interpret neutral behavior as secret devotion, which makes them highly responsive to any attention and resistant to framing the offender as predatory. Both profiles produce the offender's ideal conditions. Devotion, secrecy, and disbelief of their own victimization. Exploitation of the limerant victim. The limerant victim's vulnerability is shame plus hope. The offender weaponizes both. Intermittent reinforcement. The core of limerant is uncertainty. The offender gives just enough warmth, attention, or special status to sustain hope, then withdraws. This is textbook intermittent variable reinforcement, the most resistant to extinction schedule in behavioral psychology. The victim becomes more devoted, not less. Elevation to chosen status. Marina Crane (55:52.131) The offender frames the victim as spiritually or romantically special. You're the only one who understands my gift. This feeds idealization and deepens dependence. Weaponized shame. Because the limerant victim knows the fixation is excessive, the offender can threaten exposure. People will think you're obsessed, crazy. This silences the victim. Shame becomes a control lever. Isolation via the secret. The special relationship is framed as confidential. Spiritually or romantically, secrecy cuts the victim off from people who might reality check the dynamic. Reframing abuse as intimacy. Sexual or coercive acts are recast as ceremony, healing, or our connection. The limerant victim's craving for reciprocity makes them motivated to accept the reframing. Post-abuse re-engagement. After abuse, the offender offers warmth again. Restarting the limerant cycle and preventing the victim from consolidating the experience as victimization. Why the limerant victim doesn't report easily? They believe or half-believe they participate in willingly. They feel shame. They still crave the offender's approval. The offender exploits the gap between the victim's insight and their craving. Exploitation of the erodomanic victim. The erodomanic victim's vulnerability is delusional certainty. The offender doesn't need to create devotion, it's already there. The exploitation is different. Confirmation of the delusion. Any attention, a glance, a private ceremony, a gift, is incorporated as proof of love. The offender learns to feed the delusion minimally while extracting maximum compliance. The secret relationship frame. Erotomania often centers on a belief in a hidden special bond. The offender can adopt this frame. No one can know about us. Which simultaneously satisfies the delusion and enforces isolation and silence. Immunity to deterrence. Because the victim believes the relationship is real and loving, they do not experience the conduct as abuse. They may defend the offender, refuse to cooperate with investigators, and reinterpret interventions, police, family objections, as persecution of the relationship. Rescue and testing narratives. Marina Crane (58:11.321) The offender may frame demands or abuse as tests of devotion, which the erotomanic victim will endure to prove love. This is where coercive control becomes invisible. The victim's own delusion supplies the justification. Weaponizing the delusion against the victim. If the victim begins to waver, the offender can withdraw attention, triggering delusional distress and desperate compliance. The offender controls the victim through the victim's own belief system, exploitation of spiritual authority. In chasing horses context, ceremonial authority would map directly onto erodomanic ideation. The medicine man chose me, making the delusion socially and spiritually reinforced. Why the erodomanic victim doesn't report? They don't believe a crime occurred, they may protect the offender and resist victim advocacy. This is precisely why courts, as we discussed, may need forensic evaluation. The victim's own psychology can obstruct prosecution. Shared mechanisms, both profiles. The offender's core skill is reading which profile the victim fits and deploying the corresponding lever. Hope and shame for the limerant victim, delusional confirmation and isolation for the erotomanic victim. Why this matters for prosecution and victim advocacy? Limerant victims can sometimes be reached through shame reduction and reality grounding, helping them see the intermittent reinforcement as a control tactic, not a relationship. Erotomanic victims require careful forensic and clinical handling. Confronting the delusion directly often backfires, and the victim may side with the offender. Prosecutors may need to build cases without victim cooperation, relying on corroboration and prior bad acts evidence, NRS forty eight point zero four in Nevada. Sentencing and risk assessment should account for the offender's target selection sophistication. Exploiting limerence and erotomania is evidence of predatory calculation, not a mitigating relationship context. Caveats. I can't verify from the public record that specific chasing horse victims fit limerence or erodomania profiles. That would require clinical evaluation, not inference. The framework above describes mechanisms offenders use against these psychological profiles, illustrated by the power dynamics in his case. Marina Crane (01:00:35.062) Spiritual authority, celebrity, isolation of victims. Treat it as an analytical model, not a factual claim about named individuals. If you want, I can go deeper on how prosecutors build cases when the victim is erotomanic and non-cooperative, or on clinical strategies for distinguishing limerence from erotomania in victim interviews. Both are directly relevant to this kind of prosecution. So For for me, like when I've met the victims of Nathan Chasing Horse, like either if they've been in limerence or or either they have a rotomania. Those those two things are so they're go hand in hand because like twenty years ago or well it's going on twenty one years maybe now, but anyway like really the one child she was eight and her mother Like sh w when her mother stayed at my place, it was like this like this whole thing like like she was saying Nathan told her that her child, her daughter, who was eight years old, was chosen and that her, the mother, ha was the only one that like could pr like promote Nathan because she could he he really played into her victimhood in the sense that, you know, he he manipulated her. to believe that she she could validate and co collaborate that he had these mystical powers. So again to the delusion delusional love, it's the like to have a secretive because again it's not intimacy. That's why when I talk about intimacy, especially for me, like I'm I'm entering like I'm seventy four. I'm entering into an aging brain. And and so how and this is why I think it's important because I notice it in other indigenous women or just women in general, for me, like I said, I haven't been sexually active in fifty years, and so any notions of intimacy hasn't been physical. It's it's been emotional and psychological. So so I've practiced this for quite a few decades. And and so when when I talk about intimacy Marina Crane (01:02:53.962) And I say, well it's it's easier for me to be intimate with women because, you know, like there's commonalities of of maybe childhood memories, things for me within my community that that bonds me to to the understanding of, you know, the psychology of intergenerational trauma or just how like when I remember young people w who were teenagers that were older than me and how mean they were. And then the reality is like even as elders, they're still mean. So you know, there there there is a there is some substance in knowing people that have never left the community and who haven't really done emotional healing. why is it so important on the aging brain is because when I make comments like I have I find intimacy in in talking to women. Now Bless my sister's heart. I I got an update that they took the breathing apparatus off of her and she s she woke up and she's she she has a hoarse hoarse voice but she's she's alert and so now she she has to recover from the you know what got her into the ICU. So that's good news. That's a good update. But the reason I talk about my sister I'm seventy four and she's seventy three. We're raised like twins. She chose to get married and she chose to be a devout Mormon and raise her two children as devout Mormons. When I talked to my sister, and I talked to her about intimacy and the fact that I have comfort, and this is just a follow up with woman to woman that I found intimacy with women. She turned it and twisted it to make it look like that I was a lesbian and gossiped to no end for. decades. And even when I've confronted her through all the time that I lived in Utah, there was no convincing her that I was not a lesbian. And that's why like when I talk about victimhood and people you know holding on to a belief that they're better than another person, that they're holy or they have some sort of gift or magical power, like for what purpose does it serve? Marina Crane (01:05:19.401) And and so even as we grow up and we age and how we find intimacy, it's important. I think it's vitally important too for men because in all the statistics that when they talk about age the aging brain of men, it's so hard for men to be intimate. Like n without the physical physical sex, the the intimacy of just talking. And that that's where the distinction is in in the wording of how I talk about intimacy. I've been intimate with so many people. That does not mean I've been having sex, physical sex with so many people. That's why, like when people say, Well, Maureen, aren't you afraid people aren't gonna believe you? And I'm thinking, why is this person asking me this? It's because she's she's equating intimacy with with sexual intercourse. And and that's the danger of all this stuff when it comes to violence against i indigenous women and girls. The fact that people want and need intimacy and what does it mean to be an intimate person, a place where you're there's safety. Especially when you have so many people who have de they have their own traumatic like they have their own issues around around limerence and erotic. Because at some point in in our childhood We develop certain things. We develop certain ways of thinking without even having anybody help us guide us through this maze of intimacy. So my podcast and what I'm trying to do, especially when it comes to the aging brain and dementia, if we do not have a handle on intimacy as we're aging, then it's gonna get more concrete. You know, because our our brain, most of our life is made up of fatty, watty tissue. And as we age it sort of shrivels and d like our capacity to hold boundaries and our interpretation of intimacy sort of wav wavers back and forth because you're still looking for that validation. And and if you're so in tune to gossip, then then it's so easy to to you know, to to participate without even knowing you're participating. So but again to like I said, it re it's really like Marina Crane (01:07:40.941) So this this whole thing that says, if you want, I can go deeper into how prosecutors bill cases when victims when the victim is erodomaniac or or non-cooperative or on a clinical str strategy for distinguishing limerins from erotic in victim interviews. So both are directly relevant to this kind of prosecu per prosecution. So this is the whole notion of why it's so difficult. to to prosecute rapists, serial rapists, especially when they have celebrity status and you have all this complications of she said, he said, all that. And and the fact that people just don't want to see the individual for who they really are. I mean, you know, when people say what happens in the bedroom stays in the bedroom, or what happens in Las Vegas stays in Las Vegas. I mean I jokingly say that, but the reality of it is that is you know, that's the crux of everything. So I'm going to while you're here, I'm going to do this. So I'm going to ask, let's see, what is the relevance between erodomania and limerence when it comes to distinguishing these two in victim interviews when it's applied to the court case such as Nathan Chasing Horse? Okay, so that is a question. Distinguishing erodomania from limerence in victim interviews, relevance to a case like chasing horse, this is the sharpest version of the question you've been building toward. In a prosecution like chasing horses, where the offender held spiritual authority, victims were isolated, and the conduct was framed as ceremony or special connection. The Limerence Erodomania distinction in victim interviews has direct consequences for whether the victim is believed, whether the victim cooperates, how the abuse is charged and proven, how the victim is treated on the stand. Below is the framework, with the caveat that I can't verify individual victim psychologies from the public record. Why the distinction matters in court, not just clinically. Marina Crane (01:10:04.568) The court does not care about the label. It cares about four forensic questions that the distinction answers. That last row is the crux. In a case like chasing horses, the defense's most powerful narrative is: this was a relationship, not abuse. The victim's psychological profile determines how vulnerable that narrative is. Limerence in the victim interview. What the interviewer sees. The victim describes intense, obsessive feelings. But acknowledges the offender may not have reciprocated or that the relationship was unequal. The victim can articulate, I knew something was wrong, even while describing devotion. Shame is prominent, I feel stupid for believing him. Forensic relevance. Supports the prosecution. The victim's own insight corroborates that the conduct was unwanted, even if the victim struggled to resist. Explains delayed reporting. Shame and ambivalence are consistent with limerence, not with consent. Explains continued contact. Intermittent reinforcement explains why the victim kept returning, which the defense will call willing participation. The prosecution must reframe this as coercive control, not consent. Interview risk. If the interviewer doesn't understand limerence, they may hear I was obsessed with him and conclude the victim was a willing participant. The distinction lets the interviewer separate craving from consent. Erodomania in the victim interview. What the interviewer sees. The victim insists the offender loved them and that the relationship was real, despite evidence of abuse, exploitation, or the offender's other victims. The victim may defend the offender, minimize the conduct, or reframe abuse as tests or ceremony. The victim's account may include delusional content, e.g., He communicated with me through signs, we were spiritually married. Forensic relevance complicates prosecution. The victim may be non-cooperative or actively protect the offender. Prosecutors may need to build the case without victim testimony. Relying on corroboration and prior bad acts evidence, NRS 48.045 in Nevada creates impeachment risk. Marina Crane (01:12:26.21) The defense will seize on delusional content to argue the victim is unreliable, even though the abuse occurred. The delusion doesn't negate the crime, it explains the victim's silence. Requires expert testimony. A forensic psychologist may need to explain to the jury that a victim can hold a delusional belief and be a victim, that belief in a relationship is not consent. Interview risk. Confronting the delusion directly backfires. The interviewer must gather facts without challenging the belief, or the victim will shut down or side with the offender. How this plays out in a chasing horse type case. The chasing horse context, spiritual authority, isolation, ceremony as cover, amplifies both profiles. The medicine man frame maps directly onto a Rodomantic ideation. He chose me. Our bond is sacred. The offender's authority feeds the delusion and makes the victim less likely to see exploitation. Ceremonial secrecy provides ready-made isolation for both profiles. Limerant victims accept it as our special connection. Erotomanic victims accept it as our sacred secret. The defense narrative, spiritual relationship, not abuse, is strongest against the erodomanic victim, who may agree, and weaker against the limerant victim. Who can say I knew it was wrong? Prosecution strategy therefore depends on the distinction. Limerant victims center their testimony, use their insight to prove unwantedness, explain intermittent reinforcement as control. Erautomatic victims do not rely on their cooperation, corroborate independently, use expert testimony to neutralize impeachment, charge based on conduct, not victim perception. The court's role. Nevada courts, Clark County District Court, would encounter this distinction through expert testimony on victim psychology, Limerence V Ursus Erotomania, to explain behavior the jury would otherwise misread as consent. NRS 48.0453. Prior bad acts evidence. Other victims' accounts can corroborate the pattern even if one victim is erotomanic and non-cooperative. Marina Crane (01:14:45.314) Victim witness advocates trained to avoid confronting delusion while gathering facts. Sentencing. The offender's target selection, exploiting limerant and erotic vulnerabilities, is evidence of predatory calculation, relevant to consecutive sentencing and parole eligibility. Bottom line: The relevance is this: limerence and erotomania are not just clinical labels, they are forensic variables that determine whether a victim's testimony helps or hurts the prosecution. And whether the defense can recast abuse as relationship. Limerence gives victims insight, is evidence for the prosecution, unwantedness. But shame and continued contact must be reframed as coercive control. Erotomania gives victims delusion, is evidence the defense will weaponize, so prosecution must proceed on conduct and corroboration, with expert testimony to separate belief from consent. In a case like chasing horses, the interviewer's ability to distinguish the two at intake determines the entire case strategy, and, critically, whether the victim is treated as a victim rather than disbelieved. Caveat. I can't verify that any specific chasing horse victim fits either profile, that requires clinical evaluation. The framework describes how the distinction functions forensically, using the power dynamics of his case, spiritual authority, Isolation, ceremonial framing, as the illustrative context. Treat it as an analytical model for victim interview strategy, not a factual claim about named individuals. If you want, I can go deeper on specific interview protocols, e.g., how to gather facts from an erotic victim without confronting the delusion, or on how Nevada courts have handled expert testimony on victim psychology and sexual assault prosecutions. So I I find it so interesting in the sense that there is a distinction, even though when I first started doing my blog twenty years ago, I understood limerence. I didn't understand Erodomania. I I was participating unwillingly in the sense that I through the lateral violence of the serial rapists who were like their families were still taking part in the narrative of shaming me. Marina Crane (01:17:07.137) guilting me like that something's the matter with me because they are keeping the secret of the of their their husbands or their relatives or their uncles or whomever. And that type of behavior still persists. It still persists in closed communities that that are have been developed and nurtured within indigenous communities after okay, understand this. I'm seventy-four, I'm talking about people my age are a little younger and then older. Who were brutalized by white people. When when the whole notion of of children not dying anymore or the the dismissal or the the well tapering down of Indian residential schools. Because understand this, when I went to Indian residential school, we were bust in. We weren't educated in the building like what other Indian residential schools were. These Indian residential schools, some of them had bob wire. So the children couldn't escape and and they worked and they went to school and they were imprisoned in these in these houses, these huge buildings. Like my mother was a was a farmhand. I remember even even in the residence, even though we didn't go to school there, we had to harvest potatoes in the fall. So the whole notion of grooming for slavery or like that like the oppression that we're not good for anything but but slave work. the self-defeating behavior and accepting the that that stance is is a form of eroti as well. But at the same time too even the shame of limerence like like the identity of wearing our skin. Now why is it so important too? Because I'm trying to make a distinction. When they started watering down the the abuse, when when they started tame taming also like 'cause I gotta understand There was a critical there's a lot of evidence that shows the abuse. So they started hiring indigenous people and they started having schools and making these places run by indigenous people. But the thing is that it became indigenous upon indigenous only because there were no therapies available for people that were my parents' age, my parents' age. And it's th those people who would be like a hundred years old now, who inflicted a lot of Marina Crane (01:19:33.957) abuse on on their children and on their families and a lot of things were kept secret but only because of the mental health issue that was created in those places in Indian residential school and for you know white supremacy or anybody trying to hide or deny the severity of what was happening in the creation or the catalyst for what we have to face now as indigenous people living in indigenous communities. That's why it's so vital when you're saying who you identify as. So you can't flower it and poo-poo it and make it, you know, love power like the hippie movement and it's all freshly, you know, like like like during the 70s, there was the Vietnam War. And they flowered it all up with the flower child and free love. Like hello, two extremes. And that's what I'm using it as a metaphor. There are two extremes now happening when it comes to Earn Oran Shirt Day and Truth and Reconciliation. There's there's the actual the actual abuse, the actual killing, the actual genocide, and then there's the flower part of it, like, you know, like look at look at what we're doing, we're creating all this awareness. At at whose cost and who's manipulating all this. My podcast, when I and I'm talking about it in terms of the reality, just the reality of of the perpetrator like Nathan Chasinghorse. That was created from that very fabric. That very fabric. So when we talk about like for like limerence, it's the reality reality grounding, it's like it's based on like hope and shame. Whereas whereas with erotomania, it's based on isolation and and you have to have a clinical handling of that. So a lot of times when when pe when women or even like victims When they're with a relationship within a partner and the partner isolates the one or the other from family. That that is a that is a part of the the coercive control. A lot of times we live our lives not not able to dismantle the very thought processes of our own siblings, our own parents. So the more educated a person h gets in understanding our basic psychology. Marina Crane (01:21:59.915) the harder it is to like like for me I just don't even bother anymore because you know, I I have my nieces she he was she was asking if I like I needed to be more open like with a sibling and I said, I can't. Like I I don't have that time or that energy. Just looking at the timeline of twenty years dealing with just Nation Nathan Chasing Horse and the psychology of of erotic and limerance, even dissecting it down to the core of how my father and mother were, even my uncles and my aunties. And even too, for me being a sexually active female, and then for me just to understand the whole vulnerability about how vulnerable and naive my family was, it it it's not their fault that they were abused and manipulated by whalt white by cults that were run by white people, because that's how they were raised in those Indian residential schools. What is important for us as a as indigenous people is to understand these cults are now being run by our own people. We have a lot of people who are in prison. We have a lot of people that are going missing and murdered. The majority of the murdered and missing aren't coming from Indigenous men doing this to us, even though I'm focusing on Nathan Chasing horse. The reality of it is it's a hunting ground for for people, men Who are not even indigenous stalking the very foundations of Indigenous women and Indigenous girls. And however we try to interpret it in terms of functioning is that when you have people who who have these idoliza idealizations, these delusions, the delusional like like it's so delusional that they think it's consensual that that You know, all these all these men who are hunting and killing indigenous women and girls believe that it's consensual. Like like that they have the audacity to to force themselves a kiss or grab them inappropriately, that it's consensual. This coercive control, this erotia that is so rampant against indigenous women and girls, had historical impacts. Marina Crane (01:24:23.647) statements from from slavery of of both indigenous and black. So the whole context of being born in a system systemic racist system is is a part of the the narrative that I talk about. So I hope you enjoyed the conversation and the difference in terms of Nathan Chasing horse. I will try to get all this organized and just have it run through once without any context from me. Because I I know the victims. I I I I I I was a victim, even though it wasn't directed at me in terms of sexuality, it was directed towards me as the need to silence me, the need to create a fallacy, a delusion around my whole existence in why I tried to alert people, the whole covenant. of of the delusion that I was chasing him, that I was this horny old woman who, you know, wanted who was spurred and rejected by him. When the reality of it is that when I spoke to him and understanding this, and this is why it's important for me to have closure in this, is that he has no feelings. Like all this like Like this is his whole like the whole delusion of consent. He's created such a fallacy on what is consensual. Everything around him is consensual because why? He's this holy person. So and all the shame and guilt of all the people who followed him, who who, you know, blindly believed the narrative he created around me. And The reality of that it was just a tip of the iceberg. I was not his sexual victim. Now, multiplied a hundred times fold for all his sexual victims, and how much he turned so many people against his sexual victims. The whole notion of coercive control that you know, like to protect him. That young woman who got up, who was eight years old when I first saw her, gre being groomed to protect this man. Marina Crane (01:26:51.051) Then when she became a victim, that he just fed into that. Like and for her to believe that he loved her, the whole notion of constantly the constant validation into his delusion and that she was a child. And and you gotta understand childhood development too in the and the how the brain works. The fact that she grew up and started to think on her own. Is the main process of why she did what she did. She had to break free from that coercive control. Bless her heart. She had all these adults grooming her. That's a really hard thing to comprehend. But I want you to understand that because it's just like an artificial indigenous community, or or take it even further, an artificial Indian residential school. Where the whole administration and the whole staff have coercive control over how students see their per perpetrators. Yes, this is cyclical. This is intergenerational trauma one one. So you understand, like I'm talking, I'm talking about experiences that I've lived through, that I've seen with my own siblings, with my own self, the the the whole notion. of just people trying to be intimate, like healthy intimacy being bastardized by delusional thinking of limerence or coerci or or erotia. Okay, I I'm just so glad I'm able to do this and I appreciate it. Have a good day. And again, I like the sue word, woe be dami dakyopiawasana, like we're all related. And and for me, whatever religion, spiritual context you have, I say creator, grandfathers and grandmothers, thy will be done. Wopidamidakya Piyavasana, creator, grandfathers, grandmothers, thy will be done.