The Complexities of Gender Dynamics

Thanks for sharing this transcript. It covers a wide range of interconnected themes through Marina Crane's personal reflections, cultural perspective, and commentary on several speakers and topics. Core Themes 1. Truth, reconciliation, and Indigenous identity Marina describes an ongoing personal journey of understanding Indigenous history, reconciliation, and the impacts of colonialism. She argues that many Indigenous people have been denied access to their own histories and contributions. A recurring idea is that "Land Back" is not simply about territory but about belonging, dignity, homeland, and being recognized as fully human within one's own land. 2. Information overload and finding one's own voice Drawing on comments by author Arundhati Roy, Marina reflects on the enormous volume of information people now consume. She worries that constant exposure to media, social platforms, and artificial intelligence can make it difficult to distinguish one's own thoughts from those absorbed from others. Her podcast serves as a way to process information, reflect, and maintain a connection to her own perspective. 3. Aging, reflection, and legacy As she approaches 75, Marina discusses closure, personal growth, and community work. She emphasizes that she does not see herself as a therapist or academic expert but as an elder sharing knowledge accumulated through lived experience. She sees her community, rather than children or grandchildren, as her legacy. 4. Love, limerence, and human attachment A major section focuses on romantic love and limerence. Marina references research suggesting romantic love activates reward pathways in the brain and can resemble addiction. She distinguishes between: Healthy attachment and genuine connection. Limerence, where a person becomes attached to a fantasy or idealized version of someone. She repeatedly returns to the concepts of: Relapse and recovery. Self-defeating behavior. Learning to separate fantasy from reality. 5. The "pothole" metaphor Marina uses a recurring metaphor of driving down a road filled with potholes. The potholes represent destructive thought patterns, traumas, and recurring behaviors. Growth involves recognizing them, avoiding them when possible, and recovering more quickly when one falls back into them. 6. Trauma and healing She connects personal trauma, Indigenous trauma, addiction, relationship difficulties, and mental health struggles. Her view is that healing involves developing awareness, accepting responsibility, and understanding the origins of harmful patterns. 7. Women's experiences, feminism, and power Marina discusses several controversial perspectives on feminism, motherhood, patriarchy, and women's social roles. She reflects on the historical burdens carried by women while also expressing criticism of behaviors she associates with narcissism, manipulation, or enabling. These sections are highly opinionated and reflect her personal interpretations rather than established consensus. 8. Inclusion versus belonging Inspired by remarks from Zina Jacques, Marina draws a distinction between: Being included in a space. Truly belonging in that space. She relates this directly to Indigenous experiences in Canadian society. Overall Message The transcript is fundamentally about identity, belonging, healing, love, and personal responsibility. Marina argues that: People need to understand themselves and each other more deeply. Falling in and out of love is a normal human experience, not inherently a mental illness. Recovery from trauma requires confronting reality rather than avoiding it. Indigenous peoples continue to struggle with questions of belonging and homeland. Reflection, community, and honest conversation are necessary for personal and collective growth. One sentence that captures much of the transcript's message might be: Love, healing, and reconciliation all begin with understanding ourselves, understanding each other, and finding where we truly belong.

Marina Crane (00:01.306) good afternoon, Marina Crane, October 7th. And you might be wondering why am I posting so many things on October 7th? Well, really I'm not. I posted because I didn't post a couple of days ago and so I'm catching up in posting. And I think I'm getting over the hump of truth and reconciliation, but again too, that narrative will never cease with me, only because so much history was denied to me as a young person. Like as a child like the only thing that I had as a child was the fact that my parents came back from South American India and telling me stories and things that they saw and witnessed in museums and just the po general populace. Whereas I wouldn't if I had just gone to school without reading, because I wasn't an avid reader, I would have missed out on a hell of a lot. And I and that's the regret is is the fact that I've got to do a podcast because there are a lot of indigenous people who who don't have that connection to academics, academia, or or even intellectuals or or people who just want who are just thirsty for knowledge or reconciliation. I'm just very grateful that I get invited to to talk as an elder knowledge keeper within the city or even and I and I'm talking about not just youth but in public art as well as well as contributing to whatever I can within my community and for for young people people within my community because I think the strata or the complexities of just the diversity even within my community i is getting greater. I I think sometimes too it it could be just an overload of information. So I'm going to play a couple of things that has to do with just being a female. And if that offends you or if it's triggering you, and you're going, no, not another female point of view, you know, welcome to change. But again, to my loyal followers and to those academics who have been reaching out to me in email, like I appreciate that, but part of my podcast is to say, like, I've just had it. Like, you know, I I've had I've had a a friendship for 30 years with a forensic psychological. Marina Crane (02:18.32) Psychologist. I had years of therapy. I've gone to school and taken basic psychology. The whole nature of having people, especially white people, befriending me and then ghosting me or just having some sort of religious epiphany like thou shalt not. And I'm going, no, that's crossing my boundaries. I just can't handle that. I cannot handle the fact that. People get uncomfortable when when I'm saying this is who I am and this is what I'm comfortable with. And and yet they go, what do pe how do people react to you? I'm going, well how what the hell? What's the point of asking how do people react to me? The whole point is I'm saying something that, in my opinion, is my truth. And and why should it be offensive when it's it's it's I'm open for debate, I'm open for conversation. That that's the reality of it. I mean I'm not l maybe maybe the sense is they've met so many indigenous people who fawn or people who just go fawning around and you know, trying to not make waves or like trying to to keep a friendship even though there you might not feel comfortable within it. So this most of the information I do get is f either from Instagram or or TikTok or just things that I I want to do in my podcast. And and again too, it it's not an addiction to the podcast that I'm talking about. I think it's the reality that as I age and the fact that I need to gather information and and put it out there gives me practice so that I'm practicing it every day. Because once I do have like once I do engage with people the people who witness the engagement are taking away something. And and there's a certain skill set that that a person needs to have in order for that to happen. Okay, so again there are certain things I do think that we need to talk about and think about. And so here is this lady I don't I think her Marina Crane (04:38.444) Let's see, I'm not too sure if I even have her. it's Female Pop Poet Society. And the speaker is A-R-U-N-D-H-A-T-I-R. And you can see her, she's a Lewis Literary Award winner. And this is her her She's s one of the ladies said, This is why I sit down, read and write by ourselves without devices. I've been doing this for a little time now, maybe an hour, and my mind is much more calmer, steadier, without constant influx of information. See, and and like and and that's the I think part of my whole podcast is I have time to sit down and and debrief with myself, as well as like anybody who comes comes and visits me, then they might think, gee, she's just so talking. She must be bored out of the yin yang. But here we go. Enjoy my podcast and thank you again for tuning in. I don't think there's ever been a time in the history of the human race when human beings have had to process so much information. And and people who have more information are more valued. I think that's so dangerous in some ways. Please try and switch off for at least one day a week to begin with. You don't need all this information. You don't need to know everything about everything. It's unnatural, it's not necessary. You need to know the earth, your neighbors, the birds, the dogs, whatever. But I think it's destroying us. It's not a moral judgment. It's just the the volume of information that they are required to process. It's it's so hard to know even what your own thoughts are, what your own language is, what your own voice is, what your own feelings are. Are are you sure they're your feelings or are they or did you just get it out of Facebook or Instagram, you know? Marina Crane (06:51.532) I don't think there's ever that's what I'm saying. It's like the information is out there, especially artificial intelligence. And and just to to be collective and sort through it all, for me with my podcast that's that's basically what I do, but I'm I'm taking it from an indigenous perspective in terms of time, the timeline of of my development, my own personal personal development. And I I think too if if you if you've had time Like I grew up without any TV. there was some radio, but I was always outdoors. And and so that's my earliest memory in early childhood development. I do worry about like my grandchildren who or even my nieces, like I I I yes, I got Liebfrog from my niece. She started reading by the time she was three. she's in she's thirty, thirty-one now, avid reader. but again too. all the influence of children like when they're babies is so vital. I sometimes like I like I say it's imagine a tree and at the base of the tree like the roots the trunk and then the leaves and the foliage and and so human development is is based like that in the sense that by the time the tree is totally developed we're like in our early twenties and and how how the nurturing of that from a sapling Like a seedling to a sapling to a shrub and then and so on is based on is based on the nurturing of the environment. And I think that's why this lady, when she's talking about taking time like to collect your own thoughts, your own language, like who you are, is important because a lot of times when I listen to Instagram and podcasts, I I listen. I enjoy more the visual of seeing things. Like I I followed this fellow who's an abbot. photographer, beautiful photographs, then he just stopped posting his photos. and the analogy of it is like the imagery. So with a painting or even the process of staring at a landscape. Like I have a beautiful landscape outside my patio. I I'm just really grateful that my the last part of my life I'm experiencing all this peace and quiet. Marina Crane (09:20.534) And hopefully I can I can ha s somehow share these things with you that are important. And so again I I'm not apologizing for posting so much today. It's just that I'm catching up. There's a catch-up part of of what I'm trying to post because I know I know in the next couple of weeks I'm gonna be quite busy. And at the same time too, I want to sort of get some collective thoughts in place because there's a lot of projects that are coming up that are going to be quite impactful in the next year, like 2027, is 150 years of make of Treaty 7 and also the referendum on separation for Alberta is coming up. And there's so much economic development too happening in Sutina. Just the whole nature of of what What's evolving? On top of all that, like I'm I'm going to be turning 75 in January. And the things I want to do, like like I'm really seriously thinking of traveling to Hong Kong. So anyway, we'll go on with my podcast, and again, thank you all for listening. And I hope and again, I'm not discouraging academics to emailing me. I appreciate the emails and you know the like you know, the content of your your emails. but I'm I'm just letting putting it out there. I am not a therapist. I don't have a master's in social work or psychology, nothing like that. This is this is elder knowledge, this is knowledge that I've acquired throughout my life. And and if it seems profound and and you're like, my goodness, well that's because a lot of this information hasn't been you haven't had access to it. That's why for me, I haven't had access to a hell of a lot of things that indigenous people Marina Crane (11:19.754) Have contributed to North America. And then when I get strangers from Europe who are just fascinated by my narrative, and I'm going, what the hell for? And that's sad. That's sad. Like when I talk about land back, it's the homeland. So here is a European going, How is it to be in your homeland? And I'm trying to explain to the European, I don't know what it's like. I don't know what it's like because I'm living in systemic racism. If I leave the community I'm I'm still bombarded by the way white people see me. So if I if I was black and American and I went to gua Uganda, it would take a week or two weeks for me to feel like I'm a human being because I'm amongst all other black people. And if I if a police officer pulls me over, I'm a human being being pulled over. I'm not being pulled over because I'm black. And I use that as an analogy for First Nations Inuit Metis people. It's it's this is our homeland, Canada, North America, this is our homeland. But the reality The reality of it is that we don't know what it feels like. Like hum like maybe maybe a hundred years ago, like with my grandpa with my grandmother or my parents, in some inkling they understood homeland. But for me, turning seventy-five and I saw my first white person when I was five, or like even younger, but to actually be around like a a w someone like a child as I'm a child, I think I was five. But I just want you to understand this relationship or the lack of relationship has has put me Marina Crane (13:07.424) as a woman in a state of constant flux. And that flux that I talk about is duality in the sense of balancing erotic and limerence. Because even though it's perceived as a mental health dynamic, it it's a it's a narrative that is used in order to educate non-Indigenous people. Because that's what we have in common as human beings. If they can relate to me in terms of erodomania or limerence, then they grasp it. But other than that, for For them to understand what it feels to be a human being within our own homeland. This is Canada. This is indigenous land. And yet my generation, and I swear it, I swear by it, that's the reason of my podcast, is I don't know what it feels to have land back. I don't know what it feels to be in the homeland. Because some because I don't live in that society. This society is systemic racist, it's colonized. However, I feel like I'm safe, it's a false safety. It's a real false safety. So so when people have been stereotyping Africa, like what this year they actually did drew the actual map of Africa and how many continents and countries can fit in the whole continent of Africa, and and that's their homeland. Okay, so that you can go there and you can feel like you're a human being. But see What is it to be an indigen what is it to be an indigenous person in the Americas? That's why I think a lot of young people say, We want our land back. We want land back. That's that's homeland. That's that's to feel like a human being. So, you know, get off your high horse and think that we want all this land back. We want some dignity and respect here. I mean it it's It's it's for me as an indigenous person and and and trying to di dissect and understand these concepts, especially as an elder, it it's not that easy. And I and and for me being around other elders and seeing self-defeating behavior i i is critical because it's also happening like with with young people in their thirties and hopefully, you know, we're trying to deal with self-defeating behavior by the time a child is a teenager and a young adult. Marina Crane (15:26.768) It's harder, it's harder if if you're living in denial. It's one thing to talk about denialism of Indian residential school. It's another thing to talk about denialism when you when you're s when your whole attitude in white privilege is based on like worshiping that that ideology. Okay, because it has nothing to do with land back. Anaclove is one of the most addictive substances on earth. I and my colleagues, Art Aaron and Lucy Brown and others, have put 37 people who are madly in love into a functional MRI brain scanner. 17 who are happily in love, 15 who had just been dumped, and we're just starting our third experiment, studying people who report that they're still in love after 10 to 25 years of marriage. So this is the short story of that research. Our first study of people who are happily in love found activity in a tiny little factory near the base of the brain called the ventral tagmetal. area. We found activity in some cells called the A10 cells, cells that actually make dopamine a natural stimulant and spray it to many brain regions. Indeed this part, the VTA, is part of the brain's reward system. It's way below your cognitive thinking process. It's below your emotions. It's part of what we call the reptilian core of the brain, associated with wanting, with motivation, with focus and with craving. In fact, the same brain region where we found activity becomes Marina Crane (16:58.114) But romantic love is much more than a cocaine high. At least you come down from cocaine. Romantic love is an obsession. It possesses you. You lose your sense of self. You can't stop thinking about another human being. Somebody is camping in your head. And the obsession can get worse when you've been rejected. Looking at the data of the people who were put into the machine after they had just been dumped. We found activity in exactly the same brain region associated with intense romantic love. That brain system, the reward system for wanting, for motivation, for craving, for focus becomes more active when you can't get what you want. In this case, life's greatest prize, an appropriate mating partner. We found activity in other brain regions also, in a brain region associated with calculating gains and losses. You're calculating, you know, what went wrong. How how what you know what have I lost? And indeed, it's this brain part of the brain, the core of the nucleus of cuments actually that's becoming active as you're measuring your gains and losses. So what have I learned from this experiment that I would like to tell the world? Foremost, I've come to think that romantic love is a drive, a basic mating drive. Not the sex drive. The sex drive gets you out there looking for a whole range of partners. Romantic love enables you to focus your mating energy on just one at a time, conserve your mating energy, and start the mating process with a single individual. I've also come to believe that romantic love is an addiction, a perfectly wonderful addiction when it's going well, and a perfectly horrible addiction when it's going poorly. And indeed, it has all of the characteristics of addiction. You focus on the person, you obsessively think about them, you crave them, you distort reality, and it's got the three main characteristics of addiction: tolerance, you need to see more and more and more. Withdrawals, and last but not relapse. So, one thing I would like The medical and the medical community and the legal community and even the college community to see if they can understand that indeed romantic love is one of the most addictive substances on earth. So my final statement is: love is in us, it's deeply embedded in the brain. Our challenge is to understand each other. Marina Crane (19:21.646) And that's what's so profound is to understand is to understand each other. Okay. So when I talk about Marina Crane (19:33.676) When I talk about healthy human sexuality, it's to understand each other. It's the it's it's the the deconstruction of the self. It's it's understanding self-defeating behavior because it's the the journey of deconstructing the self-defeating behavior because there there are processes of of relapse and recovery. so that you're imagine driving down a road and this is the analogy I use over and over again and and people can sort of like, my goodness, this is so boring. But you you're driving down the road and there's a bunch of potholes. Nobody's filling them. So so as you're driving, when you have more self-defeating thoughts, you're hitting those potholes all the time. And you see that like when you're in meetings like it like for me with elders and I see the majority of them constantly hitting those potholes and it It g it's so self-defeating because we're not there to to listen to self-defeating ideologies or ideologies. The self-defeating person, okay, you're driving down the road and you see the pottle and you drive right into it. You know you're driving into it. And my late mother used to say, I know I'm driving into it and I just can't help myself. Like and the thing is like, how do you avoid it? Well, you have to s do self-reflection and and when you have obtrusive thoughts, how do you eliminate them because you have to use a different narrative in your mind. You're taking words like shoulda, woulda, coulda, or always and like you're and again too, these are completely natural thought patterns. However, again, you're driving down the road and you see a pothole and and so you know to avoid it and so you drive around it. And you every pothole you see you drive around. But once in a while you hit the pothole. And and that's called relapse. But again to recovery, it again How long you recover is based on how many times you've learned the lesson. And so, for me, when I've seen people who are experts in limerence, without them understanding that love is an addiction, but it's also important, it's a tool to understand each other. And and that's the the crazy part, and the whole beauty of it is to fall in love with another human being because you know that you're learning. Marina Crane (21:58.368) Learning something profound about yourself and that individual. We have to learn to understand each other. So when somebody says they have a cure, there's no cure. The the and and again, too, that's the pitfall of mental health and practitioners. Is it's like medicine men or witches or priests or, you know, like people who claim to have this solution when really it's just You know, somebody trying to make a a dollar. an honest dollar, an honest buck. Okay, so the whole po point of of understanding the nature of it is is especially if you're from a different culture and I think even though I I talk as an ind indigenous woman, this applies in terms of of love for all human beings. So that when you meet somebody from a different culture and and you're you're like you see the pothole And and so yes, it it's it's going to be a dance around missing that pothole, re relapse and recovery, because not having that person that you're in love with is so heartbreaking. And and so of course, yes, you don't want to ever hit that pothole, but you but the thing is with love you're gonna hit that pothole. And and it's okay to to obsess about the person that that's no longer obtainable. And it's okay because again, the degree of of that self-defeating behavior is based on past experience. Marina Crane (23:36.246) Now I'm going to play this and I said there's so many practitioners out there who have this theory on limerence, but I try to talk about it in terms of being a minority and using it as a narrative between the two. One is about fantasy and ghosting, so that you know that you're the person that you're falling in love with will walk away. The other one is erotic where you're falling in love with somebody, but it's based on on on reality. And and that unreality can go into dangerous a dangerous area of of violence. So again too in a cautionary tale is is You know, really taking a look at like again, when you're fall in love, are you falling in love what like i is this to understand another human being? But if you're being really obsessive and looking for per like possession or ownership or some sort of narcissistic Machiavellian, like it's r you know, you you have to really think that people cannot be that naive. That's why like healthy human sexuality is is like learning about it so that you're not naive. That you're not naive about it and that you can you can have some sort of skill set when you see that pothole to drive around it. I mean, potholes are gonna be potholes. And and but at the same time too, it's okay like that you avoid them and say you're in a relationship and you're both avoiding those potholes. But then when a pothole hits and you and you just separate, that's a human condition. Like like in my previous podcasts and just with in terms of anthropology and evolution, human beings are are we're we're made to bond. But the basic psychology of it is is when I talk about in Indian residential schools or just people who Marina Crane (25:34.076) have been impoverished and been traumatized, that that self def that self defeating behavior becomes like really what the per it's as a it's like paralyzed you or rigid or or just like the inability that fear the that holding on and not wanting to let go or like I I I think in in the extreme, extreme cases when children have gone through horrific experiences, they develop multiple personalities. And even so, you know, there are there are elders in my community who have like I I swear they have different personalities and and the thing is for for whatever reason they hold on to that. And the fact that they've never really let go of it i is is heartbreaking. Because because the the structure isn't like the structure's gone l a long time ago. So we'll say the Indian agent or the Indian residential school or the day home of the hospitals, whatever was traumatizing, it's gone. But but that fear and that rigidity is is still in place. And and understanding it and allowing yourself to, you know, hit that pothole, but but but understanding what triggered it. Okay, so. Anyway, here we go. You may have heard me talk about limerence before, but I think that many people still misunderstand what limerence actually is. Most people think that it simply means that you're thinking about someone a lot, but that's really not what makes limerence unique. Marina Crane (27:14.07) In fact, one of the most important things to understand is that limerence doesn't necessarily change who the person is. It changes how you see them. And that distinction can change everything. Let me try to explain this. One of the questions that I hear all the time after a breakup is this. Why can't I stop thinking about them? I also hear questions like, why am I still obsessed with somebody who clearly doesn't want me in their lives? Or why does it feel like I'll never find someone like them again? And many times people assume that the answer is really simple. They think to themselves, well, it must be because I really love them. But sometimes what they're experiencing is not love at all. Sometimes it's limerence. The term limerence was first introduced by psychologist Dorothy Tetoff. And she spent years studying intense romantic infatuation. And what she discovered was really fascinating. People experiencing limerence often develop intrusive thoughts about another person. And listen, these are not occasional thoughts, these are constant thoughts. Thoughts that show up while you're working, thoughts that show up while you're driving, thoughts that show up while you're trying to sleep, thoughts that seem to have a life of their own. Thoughts that seem to come out of nowhere. The person becomes the center of your emotional universe, and here's where things become really complicated: the limerant mind doesn't see people objectively, it sees them selectively. Want you to really think about that. When you're limerant. Marina Crane (29:07.106) Your brain starts highlighting evidence that supports a fantasy in your mind. You focus on their good qualities. You focus on moments of connection. You focus on potential. You focus on chemistry. You focus on the future that you imagined you were going to have together. Meanwhile, the flaws get minimized. Marina Crane (29:37.794) The inconsistencies get explained away, the red flags get rationalized, the reality gets edited. And before long, you may not actually be relating to the real person anymore. You may be relating to the version of them that exists inside your mind. And that's why I often tell people: the most dangerous thing about limerence isn't that it makes you obsessed. It's Because it convinces you that your obsession is evidence of something, you think, I can't stop thinking about them, therefore they must be really special. Or I've never felt this strongly before, therefore they must be my soulmate. Or you may think, I can't move on, therefore we must belong together. But none of those conclusions actually follow. All they prove is that your emotions are really intense, and that's it. Intensity and compatibility are not the same thing. Intensity and relational health are not the same thing. Intensity and destiny are certainly not the same thing. And one of the reasons that limerence is so powerful is because it feeds on uncertainty. And this is one of the most fascinating parts of the research. Healthy love tends to grow through consistency. Limerence seems to grow through inconsistency. The text that comes and goes, the mixed signals, the situation ship, the ex who reaches out and then disappears. The person who seems interested one day and seems distant the next. For many people, certainty calms the nervous system. Uncertainty activates it. The brain starts searching for answers, searching for clues, searching for reassurance, searching for certainty. And so every little interaction suddenly seems meaningful. They watched my story. What does that mean? They liked my post. What does that mean? They texted after three weeks. What does that mean? Marina Crane (31:59.298) They used a heart emoji. What does that mean? The mind becomes a detective. It becomes trapped in analysis. And what many people don't realize is that this cycle can become emotionally addictive. Your mood starts rising and falling based on somebody else's behavior. If they reach out, you're okay. If they disappear, you become anxious. If they show interest, you're hopeful. If they pull away, you're devastated. Your emotional state becomes extremely and externally regulated. And that's a very dangerous place to be because your peace is no longer coming from within. Your peace is being controlled by someone else's choices and decisions. One of the saddest things that I see is when people begin organizing their entire lives around another person's attention. They check their phone constantly, they monitor social media, they analyze conversations, they replay memories, they literally postpone healing because they're waiting for something to happen. Weeks pass, months pass, sometimes even years pass. Not because they're still deeply connected to that person, but because they're deeply connected to the fantasy of that person. And that's the part that many people don't want to hear. Often the hardest thing to let go of isn't the person. It's the future you imagined with that person. The life that you pictured inside your mind. The relationship you hoped was going to happen, the validation that you wanted. The loneliness that you thought that they would somehow solve, the emotional needs you believed that they would finally meet. The person becomes the container holding all of those hopes and dreams, which is why letting go feels like losing part of yourself. You're not simply grieving who they are, you're grieving who you thought they could be. You're grieving who you thought you would become together. Marina Crane (34:15.288) with them. And that's a very different kind of loss. Now, I want to be careful here. I'm not saying that your feelings aren't real. They are real. The longing is real, the sadness is real, the grief Marina Crane (34:33.772) Real, the attachment is real. What I'm saying is that the story attached to those feelings may not always be accurate. Love sees people as they are. Limerence often sees people as we need them to be. Love accepts reality. Limerence often resists reality. Love grows through knowing someone. Limerence often grows through imagining someone. And these are important distinctions. If you find yourself relating to this, I want you to know you're not crazy, you're not weak, you're not broken. You're experiencing a very real psychological phenomenon that millions of people every year experience. The good news is that awareness creates freedom. Once you can identify limerence, you can begin separating the fantasy from the reality. And once you can separate fantasy from reality, you can begin reclaiming your own emotional power. Once you stop viewing someone through the lens of obsession, you can finally start seeing both them and yourself more clearly. If these conversations about attachment and Heartbreak and limerence and healing and emotional recovery are helping you, I would encourage you to follow along. Listen to the c so again, there are a whole bunch of psychologists. When I went to university in the States and see these the limerence too isn't just on human beings. It could be reality like not like looking at university and realizing like you're not academically prepared for it and that's heartbreaking. Or or thinking and not being able to comprehend the material. certain things insert a self-defeating behavior. When when I worked with high risk suicide girls, the main structure that we as as supervisors or Marina Crane (36:48.3) like as we were attending and watching and and documenting behavior was was the words consistent and inconsistency. And and and that was like really eye-opening for me was the reality of like what is consistent and what is inconsistent. So when you're talking about reality and fantasy and the things that are factual, that you're you're trying to you're trying to get the individual to stay in reality. and and understand like this is their responsibility. This they're they're taking you're trying to help them take ownership of whatever behavior that they were involved in which was self destructive. So the the reality of it too is like when you're saying that it has to do with reality, the the the extreme of it is erodomania because it it has there there's no reality there. The it's it's not it's not a fantasy. It's it's based on like something really extreme. So so that's why I'm saying there's there there is a point in in the whole creation of this what we call love and and how we perceive it because it it's one thing to be physically like to to have sex, but it's another thing to be drawn to an individual and actually work on on what is real. The the structure of it too isn't isn't easy. It it it isn't it's never easy. And the the thing about it for me the clim for for me is the the thing is when people say you're educated and then if I meet other indigenous people or other educated people does not mean that they have a handle on limerance. Like like like like I said, it's normal. It's a normal feeling. Everybody experiences it. And and I use the analogy of women, like years ago when women weren't allowed to own a a credit card or an apartment, and even the fact like when they first got married, their wedding night could have been one of sexual assault, and that they would think that that's what is normal, that's what love is, to be raped every night. Or or the woman is a virgin and on her wedding night she collects she catches a trans sexually transmitted disease. Or or the fact that Marina Crane (39:13.826) that she gets beaten up if she doesn't submit. So a lot of these structures in terms of like I again, I truly believe like people have gone and been involved in cults in order to sort of feel like and have some support in what is real. But a lot of times in these cult like forms, it it also it can be dangerous. Like you said, there are s there is danger to things. So so when they had the Oxford group was established in Mackinac Island, Michigan and during the Second World War. And again they recruited a lot of Native Americans. Like I said in my one podcast, you know, the whole nature of billionaires doing things to to incorporate their own companies into third world countries. That was going on in this that's been going on forever. But it but what I'm trying to say is that even self help groups have have have that foundation of of like recruitment and and so like when they had the Oxford group and Alcoholics Anonymous and the reason I'm s so structured about this is because my late father, when he belonged to this moral rearmament movement, that that was the Oxford group. And they had psychologists and therapists who were part of this group, educated group, but not once did they ever, ever help my parents. And and so the structure wasn't for the individual, it was for the whole collective of the group, the Oxford group. And they're per they were promoting like AA. And and also understand this. Why I'm talking about AA is that Limerence, a limerence group broke off from like they not broke off, they created a support group within the structure of Alcoholics Anonymous. So there was Alcoholics Anonymous, Al Anon. And then there was also this alcohol like this Limerence support group. And it was based like so understand this. Al Anon is a support group for spouses whose partners are alcoholic. That's a way of understanding the realities of the individual who has the addiction. Understand this too, when when the lady is talking about addiction, like love is is the most powerful addiction. Marina Crane (41:32.844) That's what we're dealing with and and the structure and how people manipulate or use coercive control to to f fulfill their ideology. So a lot of when I talk about healthy human sexuality and getting to know another human being, it's to have that courage to heal. We use that as a as a conund like a a a conundrum or a mo mo motive or a motto a motto. Yeah. So so these women who married these men who were going to AA, they became Al Anonon participants. And the more they started talking in these El Anon groups, they found out that they had a lot of things in common which had to do with trauma. Trauma based on the woman themselves as well as the men. So the relationship was based on trauma bonds. Based on that, they developed the limerence group where they had a support group just for limerence. So that's why when when people talk about cults and when like how long this limerence could hold on. And for me to see all these women and children who were who were drinking the Kool-Aid, who were drinking the Kool-Aid of Limerence towards Nathan's chasing horse, that was the main impetus when I first met him because I'd already experienced what limerence was. I'd already been studying self defeating behavior, like how to eliminate a self defeating behavior. So when I spotted that, I didn't realize just how encompassing it was and how debilitating it it can be, especially if the person who's in limerence doesn't want to face reality. They they don't want you to knock them back into reality. And that was the whole point too when I worked with high-risk teenage girls. They had to be under lock and key because they struggled not to, not to. They just did not want to live in reality. And and and you know, like to and to have accountability for their actions if they hurt somebody. Because the thing is they were a danger to themselves and others. That meant that that meant that they wanted to kill themselves as well as the propensity to kill others. And the youngest child that I watched was a twelve year old. And she was given special permission to be in our ward because her and her mother had a psychotic break and killed the grandmother. And she was so angel like. So Marina Crane (43:56.524) So the r the reality of like how dangerous how dangerous it like like the obsessive compulsive behavior can be and and for for guided imagery to help the individual or the youth come to terms on their own of what behavior they need to change. So that's the basic structure of it and why I thought I'd focus on limerence because it's it's it's something that that happens all the time. All the time. Like I said, it's it's it's part of being human. It's part of healthy human sexuality. We will fall in love and out of love continuously. And and the degree the degree of it is based on how much we're willing to to engage in that relationship. what can I say? What can I say? A relationship's emotional intensity exceeds its relational capacity, you keep having experiences that feel bigger than what the relationship can actually hold. The conversations are deep, the chemistry is strong, the vulnerability is real, and there are moments of closeness that feel so rare. But the relationship itself cannot support any of these moments. There's not enough consistency, time, shared memories, integration, or foundation. So the connection keeps producing more feeling. Than structure. Imagine pouring a gallon of water into an eight-ounce cup. There's nothing wrong with the water. The glass just cannot contain it. So eventually you have to stop pouring. This is where so many people will end up living in relational purgatory. Too connected to move on, too limited to move forward. And this is where self-respect needs to kick in strong. They may love you, they may be struggling, they may care about you, they may miss you, they may think about you. They may even be doing the absolute best that they currently know how. But none of that changes their eight-ounce cup and the gallon of water you're trying to pour into it. You have to create distance. Distance is the way that you can let the connection naturally die down without intellectually having to force yourself there. Eventually you will stop asking, how can I give up something so powerful? And you start asking, why was I allowing something this powerful to hold so little responsibility? Marina Crane (46:15.586) When a relationship's emotional intensity exceeds its relational capacity, you keep having experiences that feel bigger than what the relationship can actually hold. The conversations are deep, the chemistry is strong, the vulnerability is real, and there are moments of closeness that feel so rare. But the relationship itself cannot support any of these moments. There's not enough consistency, time, shared memories, integration. or foundation. So the connection keeps producing more feeling than structure. Imagine pouring a gallon of water into an eight ounce cup. There's nothing wrong with So the word consistency, and that's the whole point of it, is when the behavior is consistent and you and you're validating that with the individual who is experiencing relapse. Because because the potential of recovery is what they're experiencing for themselves, so that they know that okay, the cup, you know, you're pouring they're pouring a gallon of water into an eight-ounce cup. But the reality of it is they themselves have to see how big that eight ounce cup is, even though it seems overwhelming that this gallon of water is there. So imagine my podcast is a gallon of water, and you as my audience are holding an eight ounce cup, and I'm constantly talking about limerence and healthy human sexuality, and and you're going, Wait is it when is it gonna stop? See, and the reality there's got to be consistency. And and the and what the consistency. Consistency, like I said, when I took this job and we're writing, and we have to write reports of what is the consistent or inconsistency of behavior. That was the reality or the checkpoint of reality, because again, you can't be intrusive and read their thoughts, but you can see and understand their behavior when they act out. And so that's it's a consistent behavior. And it can be a consistent self-defeating behavior. Marina Crane (48:18.544) When but when it's a consistent behavior based on reality, then you then you say, okay, you're validating that, that this is consistent. So what does it all mean? Like I remember meeting and falling in love with a a deserter from the Vietnam War. He was twenty five and I was I had turned eighteen. And the chemistry and everything was there. But again to the dynamics of of the gallon of water this man held and the eight ounce cup that I had. And and knowing for me at that age that I knew that I couldn't hold the capacity of that gallon of water, and I walked away. And and and again to it's important. It's important to to understand so there are some things that you just have to walk away from the water. The glass but the water. The glass just cannot this w so Most of the time when I try to talk about things that I hope will be relate you'd be able to relate to as a woman, a lot and and a man too, is because like it it's both ways. That's the nature of being human beings. I I tend to think that that men are are don't ha like some men don't have the capacity, but again, too a hell of a lot of women don't either. So because it's not just men who are dangerous, there are women who are dangerous. Like 70% of Women involved in trafficking, like they're involved in trafficking. Women who give up their daughters to their their partners, like they're like these are men and women who have a child who trafficked that child. Like that's the reality. Like again, how inconsistent is it? So when we talk about consistency, we're talking about the protection of the most vulnerable. When two people know that it's the responsibility, this is the reality. But if the bait, but it's Marina Crane (50:21.546) ba if it's based on a trauma bond and and the inability to not understand reality then then you're in trouble. You're you're you're you're you how who do you who do you depend on to to help you? I think for me the time and the effort to to do that is is hard. And at my age I don't have the capacity to do that. So so it's important it's important for women to Okay, hold on. It's important for women to this one is going to be a little this I'm trying to get this down here. Sometimes sometimes some of this stuff doesn't even Register because I don't know if it doesn't. Why men should have zero input on abortion. Since nineteen eighty-five, over three million US soldiers, mostly men, have been unalived in combat. Since nineteen eighty-five, over sixteen million women have died due to pregnancy complications and childbirth. Anybody clinging to the idea that men are the ones who are sacrificing in the American and patriarchal society are fucking delusional. Why men should have zero input on abortion. Since 1985, over 3 million US soldiers, mostly men, have been unalived in combat. Since 1985, over 16 million women have died due to pregnancy complications and childbirth. Anybody clinging to the idea that men are the ones who are sacrificing in the American and patriarchal society are fucking delusional. Why men should have zero input on abortion. Since 1985. Okay, so again, like I l I think the the whole point in terms of matriarchy, in in terms of of empowering women and in in terms of women understanding the reality of the the we're we're ba like women are are the moms that they're the ones who are going to be like they they follow their children throughout their whole life. But it but it's the degree and the the the nature, the h I don't wanna say capacity and maybe Marina Crane (52:37.666) It is the word capacity for a woman to to honor and respect themselves so that they have good quality life, that they don't get burnt out all the time, that they that they can enjoy their life. And and f for me when the the rates of of what's happening to women and Well, I I I don't know like how how I can throw a life preserver out there so that a woman can grab it and and realize like, okay, somebody's helping me. It it's like the numbness or the lack of of pe women being there, well not just women. I think it's the reality of patriarchy, the denial of what men have covered up for women, the truth of the reality of what women go through. Much the same thing in terms of history of indigenous people. The whole history has been suppressed. And I think too in terms of women, I think that that patriarchy patriarchy has done this to to women is is this this whole notion that that you know this doesn't this you know we were patriarchs there, you know, again again what they wanted to do, how much testosterone men are in the the military. I You know, I for whatever reason and however it's been built up for all these hundreds of military US bases around the world, just the the notion of patriarchy, and yet we have eight billion people in this world. Eight billion. And patriarchy is what? Trying to hold on to that? Hold on to, you know, like the fact that they have can so much control over the the the governance of women's bodies, the the mental health health of women, the the the lack of empowerment. So even though I can talk about healthy human sexuality, it's all encompassing. It's all encompassing. And I'm just using a petri dish of my life in how it reflects all this, all this other stuff that that we've sort of poo-pooed and looked away and say, no, it doesn't exist, but it does. Marina Crane (54:55.978) And and the thing of the the Petri dish is when you're looking at it and you see the amount of murdered and missing indigenous women and girls and two-spirited, then you look at the petri dish again and all of them lined up and the thousands of children that went missing and you know, killed in these residential schools, then you look back 500 years, five generations of children unalived. Then you look at what, eighteen the that this man said sixteen million women have died from complications with with childbirth, like with abortions, with you know, just like ch women's health. And and and then you wonder like why why is it so hard to to look at the history the history of how we treat the most vulnerable? Because then it has a reflection on on our responsibility. If if we do if we are in some ways responsible. Marina Crane (56:00.876) This is a question that women ask, and mostly femin so called feminists from of the glory of Stein and Ilk or whatever they now want to call themselves, the third wave, second wave, whatever wave they are. And this is a very bourgeois feminist notion because they always think that we have to get out of the kitchen. And you know what black women said? You know, my mother said when they had get out of the kitchen and into the street, yeah, I'd like to get out of the kitchen in your kitchen. And it didn't even occur to these Betty Friedens and and and and and and and whatever her name is, former CIA agent bunny, Gloria Steinem. I mean she admits that she worked for the CIA, so it's not something Elaine is making up, okay? She talks about it and she was also a Playboy Bunny. And Gloria Steinem and and Betty Freedom, that group, those are the kinds of people that constantly said all the Black Panthers were chauvinists, so I didn't want to be in it. So I go, okay, fine, what group are you in? Because you denounced the woman that became Roe, but she said she didn't accept third trimester abortion. I you know, and and and I won't I'm gonna finish proselytizing on this. I just want to make clear that who cooked the food, like what? What a difference does it make? We thought of ourselves as an organization. If you had a job to do, you had an assignment. We were a paramilitary organization in the sense that people did not vote on what you did or what you didn't do. If you could cook, you would be cooking. If you could handle a gun, you would be handling a gun. Most women could not handle guns like men could, although all of us were trained on weapons. Okay? So if you want to ask me about the internal workings of the Black Panther Party, then we can ask that. Marina Crane (57:41.952) That's foreign underscore media underscore and so Gloria Steinem passed away on three September second while mainstream media lifted An airwave of tributes, another side of her legacy has been largely omitted. During the Cold War, Steinem directed the Independent Research Service, an organization, the CIA, secretly funded to counter Soviet influences amongst young people. She also criticized within the Black Liberation Movement for promoting an analysis of gender and that purposely seemed to ignore race and class. When former Black Panther Party Chairwoman Elaine Brown discussed the party's community food programs, particularly its Free Breakfast for Children program. An interviewer seemingly influenced by Steinem's brand of feminism repeatedly interrupted her to say who cooked? Or was it women who cooked the food? Brown got frustrated and hit back, seeing that the line of question Was bourgeois feminism, the type Steinem and Betty Friedan. And again, you know, like the feminist moustique, right? That's her book, this Betty. had pr promoted, which presented a false image of the Black Panther Party, was inherently chauvinistic. In her view, their class interest and distance from the Black revolutionary struggle led them to reduce the party's work to question of traditional gender roles while overlooking its anti-capitalist and anti-imperialistic politics. Women made up at least half of the Black Panther Party's membership. Brown explained that the responsibilities were assigned according to the ability not Marina Crane (59:33.374) gender. If you cooked, you could cook. If you handled a gun, you would be handling a gun. Steinem worked with the CIA funded independent research services is documented in the agency's own ac archives. Any criticism she directed at the Black Panther Party and other Black Liberation movements should therefore be viewed through the lens, especially because she was paid to counter Marxist influence and the Panthers were and explicitly Marxist left Leninist organization. Again, you know, I'm saying at what point, at what point is there this enabling or at what point is there this structure of what it is that you're trying to liberate? Like Gloria Steinem. I mean I I when I went to university and this feminist like all this free this these literatures that were coming out that was geared to to white vigility, white white women and and again to the structure of it. That's why for me I don't trust white women. I don't. I I continually say like, yeah, I I've had I have white friends or or Like I I try to to say, okay, yeah, I I I know it's it's a terrible thing, but the reality of it is like, come on. Like I said, get off the cross. I need the wood to make us sweat. I think the most uncom uncomfortable truth about women is that that that you really that it's rarely spoken about. That women are a thousand times more narcissistic than males. I don't think I think the entire human species is a narcissistic species. The whole species is narcissistic. But I believe that the most uncomfortable truth for the average Marina Crane (01:01:33.97) person is that women are actually narcissistic, more narcissistic than males. It's not that males are not narcissistic, it's that women are a thousand times more narcissistic. I've never heard a saying that, you just have to love your father no matter what he did because that's your only dad. You only get one. I never hear that. I always hear it about a woman. No matter what a mother did to her children, no matter what, that's your mama, you still need to love your mom no matter what she did. I hear women say, no matter what a woman does, a man should never put his hands on her. Marina Crane (01:02:13.984) And women believe they can do anything to you and expect that you accept it and still worship the ground they walk on. So if anything is going to improve the truth about the psychology of women has to be revealed, it's a dark place. It's not It's not peaches and cream because women think that they can abuse you, women think that they can talk to you any kind of way, they think they can put their hands on you, and then they expect you to still speak of them as angels. That's bad because that behavior trickles down to their children. So they end up their children. Women are very to their children and they don't even understand in what ways they're to their children. And you can't tell them anything because they do no wrong in their eyes. I try to tell women that even when it comes to their sons, most women set their sons up for failure and they don't even understand why they set their sons up for failure. And they don't understand this because they don't understand the nature of the male, the physiology, the neurologic the neurology of the male. They don't understand the male's existence. Most parents, especially specifically women, because it's mostly most single parents are women, you hear them say something like I just wanted to give my child the things I never had. Marina Crane (01:03:56.384) And if it's a woman saying that, and she has a son, this is bad because you're not thinking about the development of your child. You're trying to make up for your own childhood. through your child, giving them things that you never had, that you wanted. You're not giving them what they need. You're not tailoring the new environment or your behaviors or your parenting style around what your current child needs. You are thinking about yourself. Well if you're a woman and you have a son you are subconsciously thinking of your son as your daughter yourself. You're treating Him like a girl because you were a girl, and you start to give the children things that they don't need that ends up sabotaging the development of the child, and they are totally unaware of this. So I believe that more information, more knowledge, more education can help. With women seeing their own psyche. Relationships should be a mirror to the individual. Every person that you get with is going to reflect back to you who you are. You have to be attuned enough to know that, hmm, this stuff that I'm getting back, it is because I'm projecting something and I'm getting feedback. What is it that I'm doing? What is it about my thought process that's bringing this back to me? What is drawing? Drawing me to the types of relationships, what is it that is showing me? People don't use relationships as feedback as they should, but they give you information that you really need to not only help yourself but to help your offspring. And so for women, I believe, since they are the first teachers of the child, that there needs to be far more education. Marina Crane (01:06:04.372) in her duration about not only the nature of herself, but the nature of her sons, the male. Women are inadvertently doing things that harms the male's development and then they'll get out and say, that ain't my fault. He needs to man up. We need to stop the conversation about what men need to do. Do men have their faults? Absolutely. I've spoken on these faults. I've called out a lot of male behavior. I mean, I wrote a book called 41 Shades Men to Pursuit to Sedo and Use You. But what's the conversation on women? Because they are the first teachers of the child, you know? so I feel sorry for a lot of the children, especially the involuntary celibates. Because they are they are a danger and women don't understand. These are your sons. These are your sons. Women procreate indiscriminatively. They don't have a, they don't have, they don't value the things that are valuable. And a lot of times women are unable to recognize threats. So women are attracted to like the worst of the worst. They like criminals. They do like criminals. They like They like psychopaths. They like a lot of things and these traits end up getting passed down to their offspring. So what happens is you choose jacked up genetics, and now your son is socially awkward. But he's still a male. And he's still going to have so desires. And then you you you don't nurture him the correct way and you make him weak. Marina Crane (01:08:02.868) unable to fight the woes and the challenges in society. And then he gets out here and struggles with the most fundamental human need, especially the male need. You create a violent and a very dangerous person to come out into the world. What do you think the most uncontr uncon And that her name is like white soft white underbelly is what her her handle is and Princella's story it's women are a thousand times more narcissistic and let's see like I truly believe that because when Nathan Chasing Horse came here And just recently like when I had some closure and I came back and I had to I've l let go of a lot of female friends, like we're talking women sixty and older, the narcissistic Machiavellian, the reality, like just the the danger. See and the thing is like they put their daughters in danger as well because and and so like even the reality of the enabling of of the the mother Like because uncomfortable truth about women? I think I think for me this this particular this particular last video or this video that I'm playing is is so like I'm going to find out more information and more literature on on this particular author because like I've never had children. And and so a lot of times when I am around women who like again I truly believe what she's saying narc the I've I've I've had to let go of narcissistic Machiavellian women. Marina Crane (01:10:00.042) men and and at the same time too like the reality of how dangerous it's like when I talk about self-defeating eliminating self-defeating behavior and I talk about just the things that women like like just the death toll in in in what like again r the responsibility to raise men boys into men Like that like again, I I had an acquaintance, she only had she only had one child, a male. And and the thing is like this makes so to total sense because like if we o when we own our narcissistic traits and and if you have if you have a son and you're raising them, you think they're you're raising them as males, but actually like really the the I I just find it fascinating. I just find this really fascinating because because it is the truth. when people when women are drinking the Kool-Aid and they're obsessive compulsive over love and they're saying no I'm I'm I'm gonna love this man even though he's a cult leader and he's got all these girls he's he's sexually abusing. I'm still gonna follow him right until the bitter end because my goodness, I'm like I kid you not. I when I went to go s the sentencing and and I made it I made it sure that I was gonna tell anybody I was going. I didn't realize the cac the incapacity, the the lack of of what's the word? The lack of of self cr self like self criticism or what do they call it when when you're to to to do self critique, like to to have some structure Marina Crane (01:12:10.126) like I'm really grateful I the decisions I've made. But but again to as a woman and to understand like the the the women that I've had to to put boundaries down, like to actually put boundaries down because of their narcissistic Machiavellian behavior. And and until you actually see it in place and how damaging it is to their sons. Like that's the profound part of it. Is you know, like I like I said, my cousin, she she's got her forty year old sons, who she she you know, she she like until she got her job that she was the main breadwinner. and she's six she's sixty five. And she was coaching me to kill myself. Nun and then a seventy one year old whose whose granddaughter I tried to help out, she's got she's got sons. And again, single bred winner, seventy one years old, helping them. And they're in you know, hitting fifty. And and and she's enabling them by paying their bills and housing them and working, you know, until she's exhausted. Again because she's Machiavellian. I remember seeing her for the first time at fifteen and she was dancing like she was this radiant princess. And the fact that she held on to that that image of herself right now until she's seventy one. I haven't called her or texted her to see if she even made it home with her granddaughter. 'Cause that's in her her ball court. That that is her family. That is how she raised them. My she she married my mum's first cousin, my uncle. And he he didn't raise his sons. And and I could see why he he didn't form a relationship with her. Because again, Machiavellian, narcissistic Machiavellian. And don't get me wrong, these women are scrupulous when it comes to business, especially with indigenous communities. Because they will do everything to succeed. Marina Crane (01:14:14.37) But the reality of it is the lack of trust towards men triples or is double compounded ten times towards white men. So again, there there is there's there is a distinction, and that's why for me when I say I've been around white people my whole life, I've you know, just the reality of how much I've engaged with all types of men i is totally different. So when I talk about healthy human sexuality in this podcast that I've just done and this this last part of it and just the reality anything to just the reality of of just what's out there. And and and like I said, it it's it's important. It's important to embrace it and understand what is it that we we Have done. That's why when you're looking at child development and you're looking at when they when somebody becomes sexually aware and their bodies are starting to develop and they understand consent, that that consistency of a behavior needs to be to be there, it needs to be present because the world is full of so many inconsistencies. The world is there, you know, to to promote self-defeating behavior, and you see it. In all types of addiction that makes money off of that in itself, where if the you you just don't make money out of consistent things. Like science. That's just my opinion. But anyway, here I'm gonna see what this last one's all about here. Let's see if I can get this. Don't get it twisted. Inclusion does not mean you belong. You can be at the table. You can be welcomed, you can be successful. You can have a name, place card, all that, and still not belong. But when I opened my mouth to say what I actually saw, the room went polite and a little cold. And the conversation moved around me like water around a rock. I was included. Marina Crane (01:16:26.434) But I didn't belong. When you really belong, your idea gets used and you get the credit. You walk in without the weight of worry and without rehearsing your smile. Because my dear brother, my dear sister, you were not made to be tolerated. You were made to be known and to belong. Find the table where you can be all of you. Or join me and we'll talk about building a table of your own. Because in November and December, I'm gonna host a new program. Come on in this room. Sacred space for safe conversation. It's gonna be live and it's gonna be free twice a month. Don't get it twisted. Her name is Xina Jock. Z-I-N-A-J-A-C-Q-U E. And she says, Don't get it twisted. Inclusion does not mean you belong. You can be at the table, welcome, successful, with your name on the place cart. It's still not belong. When you open your mouth and say what you actually saw, the room went polite and a little cold. And the conversation moved around me like the water around a rock and I was included, but I w I didn't belong. And I find that the same for myself when I go into the city or even within my community and I'm talking and And and again, like even though I'm saying it, all of a sudden, you know, like the conversation moves around me like water around a rock, like as she put it, the metaphor. And then she goes on to say, we were not made to be tolerated, beloved, we were made to be known and to belong. So so when she says these things, that's why I'm saying when you say land back, that's like the the the homeland, where you belong, where you where you you know and you feel like you belong. And and I I think in terms of systemic racism, when when you have white supremacists who are constantly saying you don't belong. Marina Crane (01:18:38.092) You don't do this, you don't do that. and and and yet you're going, but this is my homeland. This is where my people have lived for like I think they said 120, some like the debate on how long indigenous people have been in the Americas and yet and yet we're struggling. We're struggling to say this is our homeland and land back so that we can feel like human beings. I mean, only in Africa. Can can a black person go back to their homeland and feel like a human being? And how long has the world wanted to change that narrative? To make Africa look as big as Greenland? How long has it been? And yet the science of humanity in the sense of what it means to be a human being? I really am grateful that there are intellectuals out there, especially men. And again, by the time a man has has raised a family and has had their own company and we'll call them the alpha male, and by the time they they get older then th there's like, okay, like my goodness, there there are strong women out there. Again too, but you have to look at it. Are they narcissistic Machiavellian women? Like I really like I like I'm not saying I I know the answers. I'm just saying for for me to try and explain to you what it's like to live in an indigenous community. I met Cherokee i indigenous man who'd gone and he's an actual Cherokee. He like I tell you, genealogy documentation, it's like it's like the Metis or half breed in Canada. You have to have that documentation that you know and you can see that your family was in Indian residential school, all that paperwork. Like like we said, you know, the the Indian agent, all those documentation. In the United States, the Cherokee and Native Americans have documented Marina Crane (01:20:46.264) such records and it's really difficult for Americans to claim Cherokee bloodline. But it took a hell of a long time to do this. It's the same thing that's happening right now with the Metis in Canada. It's gonna take a hell of a long time for people who are claiming to be Cherokee like our Premier Daniel Smith. Like, hello, you cannot just put it out you know turn it on like a light switch. But what I'm trying to say is this man was Cherokee. And you know, he used to say he used to say, I carry this card. He says, I don't get money from I don't like he was consolidating ten of his cards, ten of his companies into all of his companies into ten companies. And so he's, you know, he doesn't need money from his indigenous community. But but he he says he says, I I I'm I'm Native American and this is how I prove it with my card. But but he says, I don't know what it's like to live on a reservation. So in other words, he doesn't know what it's like to live in First Nations, in Uit or Metis communities. And and so again, like it's important, it's important for people to understand these concepts. A lot of times a lot of times when when we're trying to talk about what it's like to to be an Indigenous woman. It it unless you've actually lived it, unless you actually have grown into it, unless you've actually challenged other women who are narc narcissistic Machiavellian. And and again, being even around dangerous women. Like I like I said, I I I I have cousins who've gone to prison. I have a brother who went to prison. but but to actually be around really dangerous women, it's only this past week allowing this 38-year-old to spend the night at my home, like I like it's it the reality of like just how dangerous women are and and the fact that like that her mother her grandmother enabled her again this narcissistic tendency like to enable Marina Crane (01:23:00.64) And and yet for me to talk to these women, like my cousin, the 71 year old, I even have a childhood friend who's 77, again enabling their adult male children, indigenous, talk about narcissistic Machiavellian indigenous women. And I'm saying to them, retire, enjoy your life. And then what do I get the cousin saying to kill myself? The woman who's just like doesn't wanna answer me, like, yeah, my granddaughter's got a criminal record. Like how how like it even the fact too that You know, I have one lady who's been saying, I miss Marina. She did this and this and this and I miss her and I'm going I say to the lady who she's talking to, she doesn't miss me. She doesn't miss me at all because she's a narcissistic Machiavellian. She would sacrifice me put me on the stake to burn if it meant her losing her job. She w she like, really? the the the danger and the reality of like at what point at what point str strategic critical thinking skills come into play. Like I try and tell people I am who I am because I've had to work. I've had to s like you know I I tell people I remember biking up this hill, going to work five in the morning crying. Because I didn't have a partner, I didn't have children, I had to pay my bills. living in another country, you know, just just the dynamics of tr struggling as a female, a minority. Yes, I have I've paid my dues and I continue paying my dues and I'm using my podcast to get it out there. Marina Crane (01:24:47.008) You might when you look at indigenous women and you look at their lives, understand the nature of it. It's just not indigenous women, it's all women, like this woman said. Because I had a white friend who has a 30-year-old son who is narc she's narcissistic and what she's taught her son. And this whole fallacy of like, okay, relapse and recovery and love, all based on white fragility. That's why I said, you know, I I've I've gone through it, this whole psychology, this whole you know, like be a good be a good white person because you know you're gonna help people. And I'm going, I can challenge you and say, you know, if it offends you and you ghost me, go ahead. Do it. My whole life I've been around white people, especially white women. And if they don't like what I say because they think it's too harsh, that's okay. Because whatever I'm saying, I'm hoping is going to have some lesson for indigenous youth, for youth in general, and for hopefully for people to understand healthy human sexuality. Because it's not something easily obtainable. I'm seventy four, I'm gonna be seventy five in January and and the likelihood of of just getting the information across into what it is that we need to do to help each other as human beings. I don't have Like I said, I don't have any legacy in the sense of children or grandchildren. What I have is my community and my family, my nieces and nephews, and and the boundaries that I've put in place for myself, for my own sanity. Understand this. Marina Crane (01:26:34.326) You know, I I had to let go of friendships, childhood friendships that I that I reacquainted after decades. And and also making relatives. Part of my culture is to be a good relative. And for me to put boundaries down and saying, No, I will not tolerate Machiavellian narcissistic behavior towards me. I will not do that. And and that's the closure that I got from Nathan Chasinghorse. That's the lesson I got from reporting and warning people about Nathan Chasing horse. It's because I had to get through to these women. These women who who, you know, just like they're they're in love with him. This narcissistic Machiavellian way of thinking. It's like it's like trying to chip away at at something that's frozen to thaw it out. And the fact that it thawed out and you know, he's serving life in prison. Of course he's gonna go for an appeal. Of course all this is gonna happen. But the thing the reality that why don't tell you is like there is there are so many outstanding warrants and criminal activity that there's no point, you know, it's fruitless. He can do whatever the hell he wants to do, because even if he gets off He appeals in Nevada. He still has co c cases in Montana than Canada. You know, so do and say what you want. But, you know, it people say, well, why did it take so long? Why did it take so long? And you can say the same thing too. Why did it take so long for people to even look at the thousands of children, indigenous kids who've been who've been killed? Marina Crane (01:28:23.48) Why did it take so long? Five hundred years. That's just a drop in the bucket in terms of humanity. But that's the point of it, isn't it? In s in civilizations that have gone back thousands of years, and look at look at what our our civilization has done to the Americas. And the result of it in terms of the things that we've had to uncover. Not historically like digging up in anthropology or archaeology, but in terms of human psychology, in terms of human development, and her in terms of artificial intelligence, everything scientific. These things are important for us to to deliber to deliberate and understand. I'm just so grateful that there are so many academics, both indigenous and black and multicultural, that I can I can take information and like a big puzzle and put them together for this podcast. So so with that I I'd leave you for the day and I'm just totally grateful for the ability to just put things at rest. For you t as my audience to understand the degree and the complexities of what I live through every day. And the thing is like I the anchor that I have is the anchor that when I was a child, I lived off the land. There was no TV, no iPads, no phones, nothing. I enjoyed and breathed the air and the stars and and and ate ate, you know, I actually had to kill animals to eat, like to survive. And Marina Crane (01:30:07.286) I think in in the sense that in its sense in the media and the amount of information I'm getting now as a senior ha g has given me a foundation. And I just wish, I just wish in terms of human development our children, our babies get some sort of foundation so that when they get older that they don't get overwhelmed with this artificial intelligence. So with that, I'll leave you for the day and I'm just grateful. Totally grateful. Thank you. I I I you know, creator and the grandfathers and grandmothers. And again, when when you hear or the romanticized Native Americans and grandfathers and grandmothers, okay, grandfather sky and grandmother or grandfather sun and grandmother moon. You you you can romanticize all of that and say what it is, but for me in my community growing up with people that I've known for childhood from childhood. Yesterday was profound and having all these people Like we met, and and for me to empower them by saying we all contributed to what's happening today in our community. And I'm saying that in a very I'm saying it without understand with the com compat capacity to understand we've eliminated self-defeating behavior. Because we've we've had to help each other grow in celebrate and also grieve. I'm just grateful too that that I've come to this point in my life of having closure. You know, it it it wasn't it's it's never been easy to to fall in love and to fall out of love. And but in order to do that you have to trust. You as a human being have to trust the trust the journey. Marina Crane (01:32:06.656) And it doesn't mean that falling out of love is a mental illness. And doesn't mean that when you fall in love, that is it's a mental illness either. So falling in and out of love is a normal human condition. And that's how I started off the podcast to say that love is the most addictive addictive addictive thing as a human as human beings. And and we just have to we just have to understand that. So I think the last the last what person that that I think she was that's Zen Jock I said. Yeah, Z I N A J A C Q U E. So for all those who contributed in in the sub bibliography, I hope I hope you find them and if if you want to know some of the I guess Some of these authors just email me and I'll send you some of the like what the the topics they were talking about. Okay, I shall let you go. But yeah, life is worth living. And it's worth, and love is worth living too. So love each other. Love means getting to know each other. Means to get to know each other.